Yet another scientific(?) study of "stopping power."

[tpd223]

VERY well put. But people expect magic...

They do, and then when it doesn't happen they start to look for magic bullets, or magic calibers.

I am forced to tell people regularly that there are no magic bullets, or magic beans, that Santa is dead and the Tooth Fairy never existed.

[Nephrology]

Decent amateur attempt at a study. Clearly acknowledges the shortcomings of his approach. made for an interesting read.

I know of a guy who was convinced by another nimrod that .357 SIG was the Lord's answer to their prayers for a magic death bullet. Both of them went out and blew 100 bucks a piece of .357 SIG fmj (250 rounds a piece ) - one got a Glock 32 and the other a .357 SIG barrel for his p229 plus whatever doubletap is charging for their JHPs these days. But they sure are definitely safer with that magic bullet of theirs

Needless to say it is pretty funny. They could've just given me the money instead, I would've definitely made better use of it.

[spdldr]

Google "Claude Werner" to find out a little about a guy that is way ahead of the pack. He has maintained for years that a small caliber handgun is perfectly adequate for civilian personal defense. And you are more likely to have it too!

Ever since they came out, my personal defense handgun has been a tuned Kel-Tec .32. FMJ rounds penetrate adequately and multi-hits are easier than with the heavier recoil "pocket" guns. Not that it has ever been necessary, I also keep a very light coat of grease on the cartridge cases for added insurance. I also clean it thoroughly (especially the chamber) after every shooting session. And I have a duplicate practice gun, which is easy since they are so inexpensive. Reliability has been perfect.

If they hate you (if you are police or military) or are on meth, nothing is 100% anyway unless it is a CNS hit. If it is a good CNS hit, anything will do. When it comes to handgun stopping power, think about shooting elephants. That tiny solid .458 Magnum round has to hit the right spot!

[BuckskinJoe]

I think it constructive to insert a reminder here:
Bullet terminal performance (a function of technology) and shot placement (a training issue) are independent--one neither depends on nor is influenced by the other. In a thoughtful discussion of bullet terminal performance, one should not introduce shot placement, and vice versa.

They are, both, important components of physiological incapacitation--with shot placement the most important--but they are independent.

[jmart]

No one frequenting this forum should be operating under the mistaken assumption that calibrated ordnance gelatin (a reasonably homogeneous soft solid) is somehow the equivalent of striking a human body (heterogeneous density and viscosities) and for that reason there is no need to "nail jello to a wall".

Calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a perfectly acceptable and proven test analog that permits the direct comparison of two (or more) different projectiles' terminal performance in a consistent and repeatable medium.

The conclusion drawn by the author ("caliber is less important than it was once thought to be") has been evident through testing in calibrated gelatin long before the article being discussed here ever appeared.

Perhaps you missed his point. Perhaps you are trying to turn a figurative expression and turn into a reference at something literal, which it was never intended to be.

Actually, his initial post was pretty spot on and one of the better attempts at injecting some reality and meaningful commentary into things while refusing to repeat all of the worn out cliches and hyperbole attached to topics such as this

I hear the 'handgun bullets suck at stopping' statement frequently. I think that may be a little too harsh. The uninformed may start thinking getting hit by one is no big deal. Perhaps we should modify the statement to: 'handgun bullets suck at stopping when the CNS is not struck' or something like that.

I also hate when it is said that some service calibers were/are 'woefully inadequate'. Anything that can punch a hole completely through a human body, from any angle, has the potential to do a lot of major damage and gets my respect. Incapacitation may be quick or it may not. That's the nature of the beast so be prepared for the worst case.

[200RNL]

Perhaps you missed his point. Perhaps you are trying to turn a figurative expression and turn into a reference at something literal, which it was never intended to be.

Thanks for confirming what I thought he was trying to say. No pun was intended by my mention of Jello.

[tpd223]

Nail Jello to a wall = exercise in futility

Old expression.

[200RNL]

Nail Jello to a wall = exercise in futility

Old expression.

Unfortuanately, it is looking that way.

I have been studying this for a long time. There have been a lot of nice trys since the unscientific conclusions of the Thompson Lagarde tests. But all we have for these efforts are different opinions on what flips the 'off switch' to human animation.

There are just too many variables involved in the study of human incapacitation induced by the impact of service caliber handgun projectiles.

Even weary veterans like Marshall etc. are more inclined these days to tell people to use a gun in a caliber you can shoot accurately and to concentrate on bullet placement, not to worry so much about a particular caliber/bullet combination.

I'm not so sure that the tests they did back in the 1800's were that far off the mark. They rated bullets by how many pine boards they could penetrate. Some gun fighters and military organizations seemed satisfied with .36 Navy Colts. The new fangled cartridges of the day employed round nosed lead bullets in varying calibers that seemed to do the job. Seemed most were happy until the Philippine uprising at the turn of the last century. From then on, we have been trying to nail that jello to the wall without success.

I, myself have formed my own conclusions and am quite happy with them. My preferred arm and caliber is something that I was not happy to carry so many years ago when one of the factions convinced me that my issued arm was woefully inadequate. I tried a lot of guns and cartridges and have actually come full circle back to where I started. Wish I knew what I know now, back then. I could have saved some money. But then again, I had a lot of fun getting here.

[tpd223]

Wish I knew what I know now, back then. I could have saved some money

Me too, big time.

I know Evan Marshall has a very poor reputation on this site, and many others. I am not trying to debate those issues, or stir the crap.
I just noted that recently I saw a couple of quotes from him that bear to this thread;

"The one shot stop was never a tactical philosophy, it was just meant to be one unit of measurement".

and;

"Shoot them to slide lock"

So it appears that he advocates, like so many of us, that whatever you choose don't count on the first few rounds working.




In a recent class in Tulsa the instructor quoted a line from a friend of his that was a tanker in WWII;
"Shoot until your target changes shape or catches fire".

Seems like good advice.

[481]

Perhaps you missed his point. Perhaps you are trying to turn a figurative expression and turn into a reference at something literal, which it was never intended to be.

Actually, his initial post was pretty spot on and one of the better attempts at injecting some reality and meaningful commentary into things while refusing to repeat all of the worn out cliches and hyperbole attached to topics such as this

Perhaps I did.

I've never encountered that particular phrase before.

From every appearance, it would seem that 200RNL and I have a difference in our respective idiomatic backgrounds and find myself in agreement with him after reading his post (#3) in that light although I still stand by my assertion (in post #7) that the conclusion drawn by the author ("caliber is less important than it was once thought to be") has been evident through testing in calibrated gelatin long before the article being discussed here ever appeared.