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Thread: A tutorial: acquiring an SBR manufacturer direct (Form 4) with a Trust

  1. #11
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    In regards to a factory SBR purchase, is there any worry that you could get a lemon upper that you will be stuck with due to the fact that the serial # is registered as an SBR? Wouldn't it be better to SBR a known good lower to avoid this...even though you have to get it engraved?

    I know that the likelihood of this is low, especially with top tier manufacturers like Noveske, but in the rare event that it does happen, what is the course of action that either you or the manufacturer will have to take?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    So you don't think there are any concerns about a straw purchase? Couldn't it be argued that you are paying for it and the trust is receiving it? That is how it has been explained to me, and yes I understand it's the overly cautious way to do it.
    My understanding (and this is what was done for me) is that NICS is done on the trustee taking possession of the firearm.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    In regards to a factory SBR purchase, is there any worry that you could get a lemon upper that you will be stuck with due to the fact that the serial # is registered as an SBR? Wouldn't it be better to SBR a known good lower to avoid this...even though you have to get it engraved?

    I know that the likelihood of this is low, especially with top tier manufacturers like Noveske, but in the rare event that it does happen, what is the course of action that either you or the manufacturer will have to take?
    I guess I put a lot of faith in Noveske.......2k rounds last week without a hiccup I would also venture to say that any top tier manufacturer would take care of you. Also, your SBR lower is not married to any particular upper.
    Last edited by Rayd8; 07-14-11 at 23:50. Reason: additional info

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayd8 View Post
    I guess I put a lot of faith in Noveske.......2k rounds last week without a hiccup I would also venture to say that any top tier manufacturer would take care of you. Also, your SBR lower is not married to any particular upper.
    The issue isn't the upper that my "rare situation" is concerned with. Its a SBR lower that is no good that you have too much invested in to just toss out or replace on a whim. I agree that the good people at places like Noveske would take care of you, but I was wondering (not so much a worry) what the procedure would be like in that case? New transfer/tax stamp/different lower with serial number, ect.?
    Last edited by Ironman8; 07-15-11 at 00:42.

  5. #15
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    Ok well I didn't think my ? was going to stir this up that much but thx's I understand now they the ATF wanna know were the money is coming from to buy the item's makes sence but I guess I could also photo copy my pay check stubs and my withdraw ststement and have that on file , but the acct. is safer. And the $750 was the cheapest out of 6 different lawyers I contacted. And I might spend $750 But I'll have my big boys toys.. Plus I live in Bridgeport CT and my police chief refuses to sign any fourms for NFA items so I need to get a trust. And In the last year in CT ATF had come to 10 houses in CT that had those damn internet trust's and tacking back there items. They the atf will sign off on the papper work and then down the road they see it's not a real lwayer and a internet type deal and then send some people to take back the NFA items and now your out all that money so i'll spend the $750 and cover my ass good..

  6. #16
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    Great thread, thanks for doing this

  7. #17
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    I have heard many rumors of the ATF coming for NFA items in bad trusts, but never any proof. Got anything to back that up or a source for the info?

    Being legal per state law on trusts is different than being legal under the GCA and NFA laws on transfer of firearms. I know there are a lot of people who don't know what they don't know about trusts. I don't know if it's a big or small CYA but multiple people using a lawyer and getting the same advice recommending a bank account is a clue, to me anyway.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    So you don't think there are any concerns about a straw purchase? Couldn't it be argued that you are paying for it and the trust is receiving it? That is how it has been explained to me, and yes I understand it's the overly cautious way to do it.
    I'm overly cautious by nature, but I think that's an attenuated reading of the law.

    My understanding of a typical straw purchase situation is where Cletus walks into a gun store with Jethro, Cletus picks out a gun, and Jethro buys it, fills out the paperwork and gives it to Cletus after leaving the store.

    When dealing with a trust, the situation is more like if Cletus and Jethro go to the gun store, Cletus picks out a gun and fills out the paperwork, but Jethro pays for it. Ownership passes with the transfer from the store to Cletus. In that case it shouldn't matter where the money comes from. Jethro never owned the weapon.

    What would concern me (only slightly more) is the definition of and NFA requirements for a "transfer," which essentially means to dispose of in any manner. If I pay for SBR individually, assign my interest in it to the trust, and then, as the trustee, fill out the paperwork and pick it up, was there a "transfer" from me to the trust? I doubt it. Transfer in this context seems to presuppose having physical possession. But I have not researched this issue. It's pretty esoteric, very technical, and I have a very hard time seeing anyone getting in trouble because of it.

    Having said that, everything I just posted is theoretical and the law may be different. If anyone has information to the contrary, or knows of investigations or prosecutions that inquire into any situations like the ones in this thread I would appreciate knowing about them.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    I don't know if it's a big or small CYA but multiple people using a lawyer and getting the same advice recommending a bank account is a clue, to me anyway.
    I will add my voice to those in favor of all different kinds of CYA.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddly_foo View Post
    And In the last year in CT ATF had come to 10 houses in CT that had those damn internet trust's and tacking back there items. They the atf will sign off on the papper work and then down the road they see it's not a real lwayer and a internet type deal and then send some people to take back the NFA items and now your out all that money so i'll spend the $750 and cover my ass good..
    I'm sorry if this sounds mean or rude, but what you posted sounds like gunshop gossip. Can you please find some sources for this?
    Last edited by toekneeg; 07-15-11 at 13:13.

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