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Thread: A tutorial: acquiring an SBR manufacturer direct (Form 4) with a Trust

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toekneeg View Post
    I'm sorry if this sounds mean or rude, but what you posted sounds like gunshop gossip. Can you please find some sources for this?
    Agree, please provide some news links as I'd like to learn more.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    I'm overly cautious by nature, but I think that's an attenuated reading of the law.

    My understanding of a typical straw purchase situation is where Cletus walks into a gun store with Jethro, Cletus picks out a gun, and Jethro buys it, fills out the paperwork and gives it to Cletus after leaving the store.

    When dealing with a trust, the situation is more like if Cletus and Jethro go to the gun store, Cletus picks out a gun and fills out the paperwork, but Jethro pays for it. Ownership passes with the transfer from the store to Cletus. In that case it shouldn't matter where the money comes from. Jethro never owned the weapon.

    What would concern me (only slightly more) is the definition of and NFA requirements for a "transfer," which essentially means to dispose of in any manner. If I pay for SBR individually, assign my interest in it to the trust, and then, as the trustee, fill out the paperwork and pick it up, was there a "transfer" from me to the trust? I doubt it. Transfer in this context seems to presuppose having physical possession. But I have not researched this issue. It's pretty esoteric, very technical, and I have a very hard time seeing anyone getting in trouble because of it.

    Having said that, everything I just posted is theoretical and the law may be different. If anyone has information to the contrary, or knows of investigations or prosecutions that inquire into any situations like the ones in this thread I would appreciate knowing about them.
    This is how I see it:

    Create the trust first. You, acting as "Trustee," should be permitted to add property to the trust (that's how mine are drafted).

    Then you, acting as "Trustee," purchase the NFA item (source of payment does not matter - you are purchasing the item in your official capacity, not as an individual, to place it into the trust). This distinction of you acting in your official capacity as "Trustee" will be corroborated when you fill out the Form 1 or 4 and sign your name, followed by "as Trustee."

    On another note:

    I am skeptical of any story about the ATF confiscating NFA items because a trust was not drafted by an attorney. If someone can post a source on that, I would appreciate it.

    If the ATF approves the transfer(s) and issues the stamp(s), then later on decides to come after you, there is at least one excellent legal defense (estoppel/reliance).

    Another issue I would see would be getting a valid search warrant. How could the ATF have probable cause to search the house? What for, illegal NFA items? They weren't illegal, they were approved by the ATF (stamp in hand). I see problems galore for the ATF in that situation.

  3. #23
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    I've done 14 trust transfers since '06 ( Quicken Trust ), always wrote the check for the stamp from personal account.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepDriver View Post
    I've done 14 trust transfers since '06 ( Quicken Trust ), always wrote the check for the stamp from personal account.
    This concurs with everything I've seen. ATF doesn't give a flying turd where payment originates, so long as they receive it.

    And this whole concern about who is paying for the NFA items seems unnecessary. Who is going to investigate/complain? ATF obviously doesn't care. If they issue the stamp, you are good to go. I don't see a beneficiary doing it either.

    I think this is making mountains out of molehills.

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