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Thread: "F' You and your High powered Rifle"

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    First, there would have to be a "bad shoot" in order for charges to be brought up against you.
    [SNIP]
    Now in a lawsuit, I think you could be sued by the family of the person you killed and they COULD win.

    C4
    I absolutely agree on both counts. I personally had to go through jury selection in 1998 for a "bad shoot" with an airgun, believe it or not. (It was not a shooting with injuries). The accused was up for just about any charge you would associate with a real firearm. (I didn't get picked so I don't know how the case ended up).

    It's important to remember that the burden of proof is a lot lower in a civil lawsuit, and a lawyer could convince a jury that just having a certain gun, or a gun with certain characteristics made you negligent, or whatever term they want to use. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that he may be able to put that thought in the jury's minds. To make a long story short, don't put "Punisher" skulls on your defensive gun.

    During my concealed carry class, the instructor advised that if you do shoot someone, call the cops, and when they arrive the first thing you should do is advise them that you would prefer to speak to an attorney before answering their questions. This is even if you are 100,000% sure it was a "good shoot."

    (I present that last part to see if anyone agrees with that logic).

  2. #12
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    Castle Doctrine = Immunity from Civil Suits

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Now in a lawsuit, I think you could be sued by the family of the person you killed and they COULD win. With that said, it is only money and I didn't come into this world with it and won't be able to take any of it with me. So no worries again.


    C4
    I guess we were posting at the same time there…


    The Castle Doctrine also protects us from civil suits. If we shoot someone in defense in a Castle Doctrine state, neither they nor their family members can sue us. We are protected from civil suits under the new laws.

    From the Texas Castle Doctrine PDF - http://www.baylor.edu/content/servic...php/119767.PDF

    b. Immunity From Civil Liability for Actions Which are Justified Under the Texas Penal Code
    The last major change created by the 2007 amendment is the provision granting civil immunity.111 Under this new section, an actor is immune from potential civil liability when his use of force is justified under Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code.112 The civil immunity provision includes, but is not limited to, the self-defense justification contained in section 9.32 of the Texas Penal Code. Proponents of this bill support it because it allows the potential victim to concentrate on protecting himself and his family instead of thinking about potential civil liability for his actions.113
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 07-14-11 at 16:27. Reason: Provided a link to the PDF file
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Glockster View Post
    During my concealed carry class, the instructor advised that if you do shoot someone, call the cops, and when they arrive the first thing you should do is advise them that you would prefer to speak to an attorney before answering their questions. This is even if you are 100,000% sure it was a "good shoot."

    (I present that last part to see if anyone agrees with that logic).
    Yeah, this one is repeated quite often. I think some take it a bit too far though. In reality, and as advised by my attorney, don't answer any questions under stress that require much thought or that could corner you if you word it wrong or at least you might say something that you have to explain later.

    What is probably the best suggestion is to tell them when they get there that "This man or these men attacked me and I want them arrested" or "out of my house/away from me" etc., or something else along those lines. Also, you can say "I was so scared for my life and I shot them in self defense" or "to stop him from attacking me", then state something like this, "Officer/Detective, I understand you have questions for me and I'm more than happy to give you a complete statement, but I'd really appreciate some time to calm down as I don't want to give a statement under this amount of stress at the moment. I'll be more than happy to come down to the station later tonight or first thing tomorrow with my attorney to give you a complete statement, but right now I need to calm down" or say something in place of "calm down" along the lines of "…but right now I'd like some medical attention or be seen by an EMT."

    This tells them a few things. I know asking for the person, who may clearly be dead, to be arrested sounds odd, but it shows that you were the one being attacked and you are afraid. Obviously it could be something other than arrested as long as you don't say something like, "I'm glad that son of a bitch is dead, bring him here so I can shoot him again!".

    The next part clearly shows that you are more than willing to cooperate but since this doesn't happen to you all the time, you are completely stressed out and can't clearly articulate the facts until you are calm. It also says that you have nothing to hide and will happily come to them, but also lets it be known that you want your attorney present.

    I get the idea of not talking at all, but just plainly blurting out that you won't talk and want your attorney makes it appear that you are on the defensive. Though this will most likely NOT alter the outcome, we want every friend we can get in these situations and don't want to appear that we're scared of talking or that we're hiding anything at all.

    Hope this helps. Again, this mostly from my attorney in my own words and through other things I've picked up on the subject. Remember, if it's a clean shoot you did nothing wrong and should act accordingly.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 07-14-11 at 16:29.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by winfield813@yahoo.com View Post
    Grant and Jconsiglio, Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that even under Castle Doctrine they could bring charges against you and take you to trial (regardless of how "clean" the shoot appeared). I'm glad my impression was not correct.
    Guys: the Castle Doctrine (at least the Texas version, and I doubt that any other state's is vastly different) does not give you blanket immunity from criminal prosecution or investigation. All that it does is allow you a presumption that your use of deadly force was reasonable if you used deadly force against someone who unlawfully breaks into or attempts to break into your house using force and you did not provoke that person. (There are other provisions in this statute, and you need to read and understand the statute that controls in your jurisdiction).

    This presumption can be overcome in a court of law. If you get involved in a bad shoot, you can and will be investigated and prosecuted.

    If your case goes to a jury and that jury is made up of common, non-gun savvy citizens, you need to be aware that in cases involving the use of deadly force in marginal situations - where the facts are less than clear in your favor - your choice of a weapon can color the jury's view of you as a good guy or a bad guy. IIRC, David Hardy cited a study on his Arms and the Law blog where prospective jurors were less likely to find self defense when the shooter used an EBR instead of, say, a duck gun. In my state of Texas, I not infrequently run into people who are not aware that AR-15's are even legal, and have no idea why anybody would want to own one. That person may be on your jury someday. OP's fear is not out of line, and is something to take into consideration - not the be-all end-all, but something to think about - when making your choice of self-defense weapon.

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    Nobody said anything about criminal immunity, all that was said is it will be approached and investigated differently.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe

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    I suppose most shoots inside your own home where there is clear evidence that there was an attemped or successful break and enter are most readily assumed to be "clean." But one that might not be so clear-cut and therefore might not even go under castle doctrine is one that occurs away from home, like in the Ayoob article, in your pickup truck. There, if you blasted a dude with an AR as opposed to a .38 revolver, the situation might look very different as presented in court.
    Last edited by Cincinnatus; 07-14-11 at 16:55. Reason: Spelling

    "Addressing the problem of shootings by ban or confiscation of non-criminal's guns is like addressing the problem of rape by chopping off the Johnson of everyone who DIDN't rape anyone while not only leaving the rapists' equipment intact, but giving them free viagra to boot." --Me

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    Here is the Beckwith Story. It happened in Florida.

    Harry Beckwith's Guns in Alachua County, Florida, is probably my favorite gunshop. It isn't just that smell of gun oil, cigar smoke, and old, worn leather that reminds me of the gun shops of my youth. It isn't just the fabulous Luger collection that resides there, nor the excellent buys, especially on collectibles. Harry's place has a karmic touch of the armed citizen about it that you don't find in the atmosphere of your average firearms emporium.

    The revolver always visible at Harry's belt is nothing new for the gunshop habitude. Sometimes he wears a modest Charter Arms .44 Bulldog, and sometimes a Smith & Wesson Model 60 .38 Special with the fabulous Tiffany silver grips that you normally only see in the coffee table gun books.

    No, what's different about Harry's is that as soon as you step out of your car in the spacious parking lot, you notice the bullet holes in the concrete outer walls of the building. Inside you see more holes in the walls.

    There's a photo of a rifle champion next to his bullseye target and there's a hole in the bullseye - a REAL hole, which also pierces glass and backing.

    "I like to tell folks that I put that one there intentionally," says Harry with a puckish grin. At 68, Harry admits that his recollection is a bit cloudy, but he figures that in his 35 years in the retail gun business he has experienced right at 35 robberies and burglaries. He proudly notes that in all those rip-offs and heist attempts, only two firearms were not recovered.

    He also remembers the only three times when the thieves were unfortunate enough to face him. Each time, it evolved into a gun battle. Each time, he shot them and they didn't get to shoot him.

    The first was a pure pistol fight. Harry drew and shot the robber, who lost all interest in carrying on the fight. This saved his life; when the wounded gunman surrendered, Harry Beckwith, a moral man, didn't shoot him again.

    In the second shootout, the gun dealer interrupted a felon about to drive off with guns he'd heisted from the store. Though not a Class III weapons dealer, Beckwith was federally licensed to possess such arms for his own use. When the thug raised a .45 auto pistol at Harry, Beckwith trumped his ace with a burst of full automatic fire from a Smith & Wesson Model 76 9mm submachine gun. Struck in the forehead, the gunman dropped his pistol and screamed, "I'm hit!"

    "Get out of the car," Beckwith roared back. The man did, and realizing he was still alive despite a gunshot wound in the forehead, he ran. Once more, Beckwith held fire.

    The man was captured later and treated for an ugly but minor head injury from a flattened- out 9mm hollowpoint round that had lost most of it's energy piercing the safety glass of the windshield.

    That incident took place in 1976, the Bicentennial of our nation's independence. A Class III weapons owner had delivered a splendidly appropriate demonstration of the independence our nation was celebrating. In the "the spirit of "76," he stopped a violent criminal with a Model 76.

    But neither of these had prepared Harry Beckwith, then 63, old enough to collect Social Security and qualify as a Senior Citizen, for the incident that left his place of business bearing the distinctive scars you can see there to this day.

    The night of November 12, 1990, promised to be a quiet one. The regular bowling pin shoot had finished up less than an hour ago. The gunshop was securely locked up, and so was the separate indoor shooting range building located behind it.

    Harry Beckwith was at home with his wife in their beautiful hacienda, separated from the business structures by about 100 yards of beach sand and trees. A picturesque setting that would make the quintessential Florida postcard.

    Harry was relaxed and watching TV. It was 9:50 p.m. Suddenly, two discordant sounds pierced the night. One was the distinctive crash of a heavy vehicle being driven through the steel-reinforced glass door in the concrete entryway of the gunshop. The other was the yelping of the burglar alarm.

    Beck with moved instantly. He knew his rural location was remote; even though the police would be rolling immediately, he wasn't sure they could get there in time.

    He moved smoothly and certainly, with the economy of motion that comes with age and with planning. He knew his wife would get on the phone and put a gun in her own hand, in a safe place. That left his mind free to cope with the problem of dealing with the marauders.

    He reached for the weapons he had laid out for just such a contingency.

    First was a Charter Arms Bulldog revolver in an old Bucheimer crossdraw paddle holster. It slipped easily into place in front of his left hip. It was loaded with five rounds of his favorite .44 Special ammunition, Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint.

    Next came the Model 76 submachine gun. One magazine was in place, the bolt properly closed, "condition three." More magazines were rubber-banded to the extended stock. Beckwith had found this to be a faster way to access them than to attach a pouch in the same place. He slung the licensed submachine gun over his right shoulder.

    He picked up an AR-15, a gun he has always described as a "Colt Sporting Rifle." It contained one magazine downloaded to only 15 rounds. Another such magazine was banded to its plastic stock as well.

    With the other hand, he scooped up a Remington Model 1100 12 gauge semiautomatic shotgun, already fully loaded.

    Figuring he was ready for anything, Harry Beckwith quietly stepped out into the shadows, moving away from the house in the direction of the shop, some 100 paces distant.

    He could see that two vehicles were there, both '88 Oldsmobiles, one blue and one white. Numerous adult male figures were scurrying in and out of the shop, bearing armloads of guns to the cars through the door they'd crashed. He couldn't make out color or age, only that they were grown men, and that they were maybe seven of them.

    At a point between the shop and the house, he carefully laid the shotgun down out of sight. It would be a fallback weapon if he had to retreat in that direction. He took the AR-15 in both hands, ready, and moved forward again.

    But there was a full moon out, and the same moonlight that had allowed him to observe the criminals allowed them to see him. Beckwith knew then he'd been "made".

    "I should've been more in the shadows," Beckwith would tell me years later. "He gunned the car straight at me. I'm too old to run. I fired off my shoulder at him and the vehicle."

    When the butt of the rifle hit the shoulder pocket, Beckwith opened fire, manipulating the trigger as fast as he could. Suddenly, the AR was not responding; he had run dry.

    The vehicle was still coming at him, rapidly closing the 50 yards distance.

    A skilled man can reload an AR-15 almost as quickly as a Colt .45 auto, and Harry Beckwith is skilled at arms. As his right index finger punched the mag release, his left hand broke the spare magazine free of the rubber band and slammed it home with a practiced motion, his left thumb almost simultaneously pressing the bolt drop paddle on the left side of the frame.

    He resumed fire, as fast as he could work the gun.

    The high-pitched crack of the AR-15 could not drown out the dull chong sound of the .223 ball rounds punching through the auto body, nor the distinctive sound of heavy glass breaking. The vehicle swerved off course, and Harry ran dry again.

    As he dropped the now useless rifle, the blue Oldsmobile veered away from him, cutting to its left. It threw a giant rooster-tail of dust as the driver accelerated away from the old man he had tried seconds before to crush to death. Beckwith saw the car disappear onto Route 441.

    Beckwith turned his attention back toward the shop. Five more of the burglars were there, most holding guns, pistols and longer weapons.

    Silhouetted in the moonlight, too old to run, still facing five-to-one odds against men with all kinds of guns capable of easily killing him from 50 yards away and who could easily have loaded up with some of the thousands of rounds they'd had access to for some time now, Beckwith knew he was still in deadly danger.

    He swung up the Smith & Wesson submachine gun, racked the open bolt back and cut loose on full automatic.

    "I fired high, over their heads, to keep them down," he would explain later. "I used short bursts."

    He saw them duck. He knew it had bought him a moment. But his near-death experience with the blue Oldsmobile bearing down on him was fresh in his mind. If they crawled up the covered side of the car, they could do the same with the white Olds.

    And if two magazines of .223 hadn't disabled the other identical vehicle, what could he hope to do with 9mm fire? He realized that the time to disable the felons' second car was now.

    He swept it from one end to the other, reloaded, and continued. Every window in the Oldsmobile disintegrated as the copper jacketed bullets tore through. Beckwith had stagger- loaded the magazines with hardball and Remington 115 gr. jacketed hollowpoints. The tires deflated with an audible hiss.

    Beckwith saw the surviving perps moving away from the vehicle. Now the big danger was being shot instead of being run down. A second empty S&W magazine hit the ground, and Beckwith opened another burst of diversionary fire with a third stick.

    The perpetrators had enough. He saw them run around the corner of the building. He took a cover position and waited.

    The first police car pulled into the scene approximately one minute later. To Beckwith, it seemed as if he waited an hour.

    However, reconstruction of the incident would show that it had been only three minutes from when the alarm sounded to when the first responding Alachua County deputy made it into the gunshop. The incident itself had lasted less than two minutes.

    During that time, Harry Beckwith had fired 105 shots.

    By 2 a.m. all surviving perpetrators had been arrested and were in custody. Six were at the jail and one at morgue. Roger Patterson, age 18, was found dead in the wreck of the shot up Oldsmobile. He'd gotten across the line into Marion County with one tire shot away, driving 13 miles before he lost control and crashed. Cause of death was a .223 rifle wound through the chest.

    The second man in the blue car was captured near the scene.

    Both cars had been hot-wired and stolen. Some 20 stolen firearms were found in each car. The white Olds had been so badly shot up it had to be towed from the scene.

    Patterson was the only one hit. This was because he was the only one Beckwith fired at. Most of his shots had been directed at keeping the other men's heads down and dissuading them, and at disabling their second vehicle, goals he achieved with spectacular success.

    Beckwith told me later, "I could have killed all five of them, at the end, when they were running away and exposed to me. But I was no longer in danger from them, so chose not to shoot them."

    Beckwith had high praise for the professionalism of the Alachua County Sheriff's Deputies in general, and particularly for those who responded that night - with one possible exception.

    There is still anger in his voice when he relates, "One of them wanted to read me my rights!" However, the anger fades when he continues, " And then a sergeant said to the guy, "He's the victim, for Christ's sake!''

    He is still bitter about having to speak before the grand jury. Most Florida jurisdictions bring justifiable homicides before a grand jury as a matter of course, but being in there alone without legal counsel still has a "star chamber" feel to it that leaves you with no warm fuzziness about the experience at all.

    As any high school civics student knows, the function of a grand jury is to determine if you've committed a crime. That's a bitter pill to swallow when someone just ripped you off and tried to run you down like a possum in the road. Harry Beckwith still bitterly refers to his cross-examination before the grand jury as an "inquisition."

    However, the system generally works, and Shakespeare was right when he said, "The truth will out." The grand jury returned a verdict of no true bill, in effect, designating the incident a justifiable use of lethal force.

    What leaves Harry Beckwith most unhappy today is that these perpetrators, initially charged with felony murder, were allowed to plead down to attempted burglary. They turned out to range in age from 16 to 21.

    Harry Beckwith fired two magazines of 15 rounds each from the Colt .223 rifle, and two full mags and part of a third from the S & W submachine gun. Only one bullet caused death.

    The great majority of his gunfire fell into the "warning shot" category - suppressive fire if you will. We can argue at length about the concept of the warning shot, but the fact remains that in this case, it fulfilled its intended purpose.

    It was not lost on the grand jury that exculpated Harry Beckwith that he could have killed all seven perpetrators, and chose not to. It was likewise to his benefit that twice before in his life, he had shown mercy and not killed men he'd shot when they gave up the fight after he wounded them.

    Every case I've seen of a shooting with a lawfully owned Class III weapon has gone to a Grand Jury. Some of those grand juries have indicted.

    However, every time it was provably self-defense, the subsequent Petit jury has also acquitted the shooter. Still, such trials are extremely expensive for the defendant.

    (Interestingly, Florida is one of only two states, the other being Washington state, where an accused citizen found "not guilty" at trial can be reimbursed legal fees and costs by the local government.)

    A good general rule for avoiding trial in a justifiable shooting would be, "Semi-auto yes, full-auto no."

    In the November, 1990, incident, Beckwith fired more rounds than any armed citizen has probably fired in legitimate self-defense since the Indian Wars. I'm glad he got out of it ok.

    Beckwith's domination and unscathed survival of this incident is owed in large part to the fact that he was allowed to lawfully possess high cartridge capacity, rapid-fire weapons for self-defense, the sort of "assault weapons" our current Administration would forbid other Americans to possess.

    When Ted Gogol of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America was putting together a group of citizens who had used such firearms to protect their own lives and those of other innocent people, I put him in touch with Harry Beckwith, who would have gone to testify before Congress but for the fact that his wife was ill and he couldn't leave her.

    But Harry Beckwith didn't need to testify in Congress to show that he's the kind of tough American who can stand up for his rights, temper justice with mercy, and take care of himself, even against seven-to-one odds if someone is trying to kill him.

    As long as he is allowed to own and use the kind of weapons that give him parity against the sort of brutal criminal that runs in packs, and tries to run down and kill senior citizens who would dare to interfere with their lawless depredations.

    The Ayoob Files



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  8. #18
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    Doubt it. For one many states are also recognizing the right to self defense ANYWHERE where you are legally allowed to be.

    We can "what if" it to death, but the bottomw line is I'll take my suppressed SBR anyday of the week over my handgun.

    Quote Originally Posted by winfield813@yahoo.com View Post
    I suppose most shoots inside your own home where there is clear evidence that there was an attemped or successful break and enter are most readily assumed to be "clean." But one that might not be so clear-cut and therefore might not even go under castle doctrine is one that occurs away from home, like in the Ayoob article, in your pickup truck. There, if you blasted a dude with an AR as opposed to a .38 revolver, the situation might look very different as presented in court.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Nobody said anything about criminal immunity, all that was said is it will be approached and investigated differently.
    Ok. I don't want to pick nits, but some of the statements below can be read that way and some clarification is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    The Castle Doctrine also protects us from civil suits. If we shoot someone in defense in a Castle Doctrine state, neither they nor their family members can sue us. We are protected from civil suits under the new laws.
    You can be sued in civil court. You have the affirmative defense to prove that your shoot meets the criteria under the "Castle Doctrine." That means the burden is on you. You are immune from liability if you meet your burden, but legal fees mount up quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I understand, but especially in states like Texas, it won't get to that point. The Castle Doctrine and even the "Stand you ground" laws are very clear in that if it was clearly a defensive shoot, we are not to be prosecuted or really even investigated.

    Before the Castle Doctrine, any defensive shooting went in front of a Grand Jury. Today, if it's ruled a clean shoot at the time of the shooting, it's closed and does not go to a Grand Jury - this also means it's not up to a DA to decide if it should be nvestigated, it essentially stops him from any action, regardless of his beliefs, if a few basic criteria are met.
    An investigation will be done. The police have the authority to elect not to submit a case to the DA's office. They have always had this discretion, however. I agree that the Castle Doctrine makes it less likely that a case will be referred to the DA, or that a prosecutor will move forward with prosecution if the Doctrine's factors are met. But that is different than what you said above.

    Quote Originally Posted by winfield813@yahoo.com View Post
    Grant and Jconsiglio, Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that even under Castle Doctrine they could bring charges against you and take you to trial (regardless of how "clean" the shoot appeared). I'm glad my impression was not correct.
    They can always take you to trial. (I realize this is grossly oversimplifying things). If they have probable cause to arrest you and can convince a Grand Jury to indict, the DA can take his chances trying to overcome the presumption. It is unlikely, because it makes a tough burden even tougher, but it can be done.

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    Aside from the civil suit, I think we're on the same page here. What I meant by the "investigation" was that of course they'll investigate, but it will not be taken to grand jury without good reason unlike before when all went to the grand jury. We are now to be viewed as the victim as of 2007.

    As for them or the family suing us, it cannot be taken to trial if it's determined as a defensive shoot. Sure, maybe they will try but once it's in front of the civil court, if it makes it that AR, it'll be stopped at that point. Castle Doctrine and "Stand Your Ground" both have different guidelines.

    As for the channels for investigation, it's not up to the DA under the castle doctrine. If it is determined justified it can not be taken any farther by a DA unless there is evidence, just just based on how he feels. And if it can be taken farther that means it doesn't fall under the castle doctrine inthe first place. It's not different.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 07-14-11 at 17:20.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe

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