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Thread: Do you think building your own defensive rifle is a legal nightmare?

  1. #21
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    This question is one of the proverbial dead horses that continues to come up, beaten to death many times. The beating usually focuses on a modified trigger. The OP puts an interesting turn on the question by posing it about a complete AR build.

    My question, for all of these threads that can get very long with opinions is why are all the other things that we put on our ARs to allow us to shoot and hit our targets (steel, paper, or bad guy) never get questioned in this hypothetical discussion that usually cites Castle Doctrine, "show me a court case where.....", and gun friendly states somewhere in the thread? In fact, most of this forum is questions seeking advice on accessories like a RDS, 1 X 4 optic, AFG, Redi Mag, rail systems, lights to let you ID the threat OR they are after action reviews on how effective these same items are.

    There are many posts about the Geissele triggers and I never remember seeing this question applied. Imagine the dowturn in the firearms accessory economy if we could only buy factory guns and never change anything on them to improve their function, or even their looks. Krylon would be banned since camo paint makes a gun more "invisible"?

    Anyway, rant over.

  2. #22
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    Honestly...if your justified for shooting as self defense..you should not have any problems on what weapon you used or not...as long as it is legal for you to own it.. If you have your AR at your disposal use it..if you have your pistol at your disposal use it. Use whatever force is necessary to stop the threat...end of story

  3. #23
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    The key thing is where the AR is otherwise legal to own and whether you are following the laws of the state.

    In NJ you can't own more than a 15 round magazine or an AR with a collapseable stock, bayonet lug, flash hider--or something to that effect. I don't believe they have any provision for a legally owned AR with these features that was owned before they passed their laws outlawing the features.

    Some states are more restrictive with regard to the use of deadly physical force for defensive purposes. Some things that you can do in one state will get you in trouble in another, as already mentioned by other posters.

    A lot has to do with local law and how it reflects attitude toward firearms (like is there a Castle Doctrine, will issue CCW, etc). Most important is the circumstances of the shooting.

    As I've said in another thread:

    1. Times are different and the use of AR type firearms are far more widespread among police as well as ownership is much higher. Even AKs are far more common.

    2. It depends where you live--the laws and legal environment what is legal to own and legal to do. What is true in one state and legal environment may not be true in another.

    3. It ultimately depends on the situation & the justifiability of the shooting, and how it interplays with the previous two factors.

  4. #24
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    As a lawyer, I hear these stories all the time, and they all appear to be apocryphal. I've never seen someone get prosecuted (who would not otherwise be prosecuted) for having a trigger mod, and I've never read a legitimate case about it, either. Either you were justified in self-defense or you weren't. Either you were carrying a legal weapon or you weren't.

    Could it be an issue in a civil wrongful death case? Sure. Just like having "CQB" or "TAC OPS" or "Enforcer" rollmarked on your personal carry gun.

    Is it legal to carry? Yes. Do you think the concept of "close quarters battle" plays well to a jury in a civilian shooting? To a jury of your 12 "peers," it could very well look like you're a nutbag vigilante looking for a fight if it's even a remotely close call. JMO.

  5. #25
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    The shooting is either justified self defense or it isn't. My only concern about "building" a rifle is adhering to NY's ambiguous AWB definitions.

    When considering trigger upgrades on my AR's, I went with Geissele SSA's instead of the DMR's or 3-gun triggers because of the trigger pull. It should be obvious that a light match type trigger isn't ideal for use in a high stress combative situation like a HD scenario.

  6. #26
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    Good shoot + hair trigger = no problem

    Questionable or accidental shoot + hair trigger = the potential for increased problems...

    This is way oversimplified, but is why most LE agencies will not allow modification to the firecontrol mechanisms on duty weapons. You want to avoid things that might help the lawyers to establish "gross negligence" "intentional disregard" and a number of other such lawyer phrases. This is particularly true when it comes to the lawsuit that follows almost all shootings, but also might be the difference between manslaughter and 2nd degree murder charges in a criminal prosecution that follows an accidental or questionable shooting.

    The question is, do you plan for the best or the worst? If you absolutely know that any shooting you are involved in will be perfect... you have nothing to worry about!

    In my opinion, when it comes to a defensive weapon... use a relatively "normal" weapon, keep the weapon relatively "normal" and stay away from altering the fire control mechanism of your chosen weapon. Changes to the sights and the addition of a weapon light are generally good to go. "Performance" modifications are where things can become slippery.

    Oh yeah... funny slogans make me smile as much as the next guy but... "Trespassers will be shot and survivors will be shot again" might come back to haunt you should the need actually arise. You will not find any such writing in/ around my residence... nor (and particularly) on my guns.

    I like the idea of being a "gray man" when it comes to using a firearm in self defense. I do not take it to the extreme of using a bird hunting shotgun for self defense... but you will not find any of my competition type firearms any place other than inside my gun safe (except when I am using them for their intended purpose). If it's all you have, by all means use it... but if you have a choice, help yourself and all other law abiding gun owners and keep it "gray"!

    BTW, the real weapon is the person operating the gun... If you really want to improve the capability of your weapon... learn, prepare and practice!

    Just my 2c
    Last edited by cmb2474; 07-20-11 at 13:36.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    First off I wanted to post this question in the "general" page but I did not have access.

    Ok I'll preface my question with a scolding that my friend got from the instructor at our last pistol training class. See he had the 3.5lbs disconnecter in his Glock and the instructor made it clear that a lighter trigger dose not belong in a carry gun. The instructor is active LEO and claims to testify as an expert witness on a federal level on a somewhat regular bases. He claimed that if you find yourself in court after a defensive shooting that the prosecution will have a field day. He said that he has testified in court where the defendant was accused of having a "hair trigger" and the prosecution built a case around that one point and made the defendant look like a vigilante.
    I have a few concerns about this claim but overall I guess it's possible.

    So with that in mind. All of us here that have built our own AR's for whatever reason, are we setting ourselves up for disaster if, God forbid, we ever use our AR's in a defensive shooting?
    I'm a LEO with the major agency in my region. Been there for the last 19 years. I recently was at a club I belong to and had to stop by the club house to use the restroom prior to hitting the ranges. As they had some type of ccw class going on, I was trying to be quiet and sneak in the back. I'm listening to the instructor ramble on, and on, and on... Then I turned and looked across the class room. He's an officer from my agency. He's never worked for me (I've been a Relief Sergeant for the last 10 years) But I know of him. He's a goof! And worse was that he's a goof trying to impress the class with his impressiveness. I'd be surprised if he's recovered 10 guns off of individuals in the last 10 years.

    I mention this because whenever I hear people bragging about their LEO exploits, but yet being somewhat vague at the same time, I tend to get skeptical. Those who do that kind of thing on a regular basis tend to not talk about it much unless discussing with someone with similar experiences. Definitely do not brag about it.

    As to a legal nightmare for using your own build? I would stay away from the Zombie, skull, "kill'm all" marked receivers.

    I could see where a home build could be a legal issue in civil court, if you have an accidental discharge and are being sued because your gun was unsafe (ie, the gun went off with the safety lever engaged, ect.).

    Other than that, the reality of the matter is simple. A good shoot is a god shoot. A questionable shoot is going to be questionable.

    An articulable perception of a threat of serious bodily harm to you or others, and the suspect still possessed the means to continue to pose that threat. If you have that, then a factory Colt 6920, a home build AR, a Star Trek Phaser, a brick, what ever works. So long as you can articulate your perception of the threat, and that your actions were reasonable and necessary.

    I'd be much more worried about the reliability aspect. Many large volume training centers dealing with the general public tend to be skeptical when students show up with home builds. This is only due to the higher rate of malfunctions they see with guns assembled with unknown quality parts and labor. If you trust your gun enough to bet your life on it, then go for it.

    As to the buddies Glock with the 3.5 disconnector? Once again, most instructors when dealing with an unknown shooter will error on the side of caution. The issue would be, once again, liability if an accidental discharge resulted in unintentional injury.

    But then, as Mr. Pat Rogers once stated, "Some people shouldn't have guns, or cars, or children, or oxygen". I have that quote printed and posted on the wall in front of my desk at work. Just to mess with some of the administrative types. Most Beat Officers read it and just say, "Yep..."!
    Last edited by Beat Trash; 07-20-11 at 15:05.

  8. #28
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    Directly from the the Ohio Revised Code - http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.05

    2901.05 Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense.

    (A) Every person accused of an offense is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and the burden of proof for all elements of the offense is upon the prosecution. The burden of going forward with the evidence of an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, for an affirmative defense, is upon the accused.

    (B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.

    Furthermore: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.09

    2901.09 No duty to retreat in residence or vehicle.

    (A) As used in this section, “residence” and “vehicle” have the same meanings as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

    (B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person’s residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person’s residence, and a person who lawfully is an occupant of that person’s vehicle or who lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another.

    Effective Date: 2008 SB184 09-09-2008

    Any attempt at making me look like a vigilante because of my "tactical assault rifle" would be a complete load of horse shit from a liberal, overzealous prosecutor. If my use of self defense is justified under these sections of the ORC, it doesn't matter if my instrument was my AR or a ball peen hammer.
    B.A.S. Mechanical Engineering Technology

  9. #29
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    Shooting people is a legal nightmare pretty much regardless of what you do it with.
    Stick


    Board policy mandates I state that I shoot for BCM. I have also done work for 200 or so manufacturers within the firearm community. I am prior service, a full time LEO, firearm instructor, armorer, TL, martial arts instructor, and all around good guy.

    I also shoot and write for various publications. Let me know if you know cool secrets or have toys worthy of an article...


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  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=QuietShootr;1052190]This is all about situational awareness. It just completely depends on where you live. Where I live now, I have no fear of using a suppressed SBR for home defense. We have no-retreat, Castle Doctrine, and civil immunity from a justified shooting where I live.

    finally just passed this month here in PA....

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