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Thread: Do you think building your own defensive rifle is a legal nightmare?

  1. #41
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    Simplify things by being the only person left to testify.

    Does wonders
    Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
    What Happened to the American dream? It came true. You're looking at it.

  2. #42
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    Here's an example of having something that is "too proficient" for it's own good, and can get the owner in trouble.

    A cop is sitting behind an overpass clocking cars as they pass. A Toyota Camry passes, going 75 in a 65. The LEO considers going after the person but decides it isn't that big a deal. Five minutes later, a bright red Porsche with a body kit, wheels, modified exhaust goes by- 75 in a 65 as well. I think 99% of us have been around long enough to know that the cop is a thousand times more likely to go after the Porsche (or any other sports car) because it's a "fast" car and the driver is using it to speed (although by no more than many others). The LEO walks up to the Porsche's window and sees a roll cage and racing seats, etc. I think we can all agree, this guy is NOT getting out of this ticket- and if you think it has nothing to do with the car he drives, you're kidding yourself.

    Somewhat playing devil's advocate here, but it's an example I thought of last night after I passed an LEO in my white sedan going the same speed as a black Corvette that was two cars behind me (and had been for a little while), and not getting pulled over. Guess who did get pulled over.

  3. #43
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    Here's the best answer i can give: Lewis Machine & Tool!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    First off I wanted to post this question in the "general" page but I did not have access.

    Ok I'll preface my question with a scolding that my friend got from the instructor at our last pistol training class. See he had the 3.5lbs disconnecter in his Glock and the instructor made it clear that a lighter trigger dose not belong in a carry gun. The instructor is active LEO and claims to testify as an expert witness on a federal level on a somewhat regular bases. He claimed that if you find yourself in court after a defensive shooting that the prosecution will have a field day. He said that he has testified in court where the defendant was accused of having a "hair trigger" and the prosecution built a case around that one point and made the defendant look like a vigilante.
    I have a few concerns about this claim but overall I guess it's possible.

    So with that in mind. All of us here that have built our own AR's for whatever reason, are we setting ourselves up for disaster if, God forbid, we ever use our AR's in a defensive shooting?
    A shooting is justified based on the circumstances and the legality of pulling the trigger. The hardware is irrelevant into whether a shooting is justified. Attorneys are like interior decorators...always trying to create window dressing.
    US Army Military Police 97-03
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    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cevtv View Post
    Let me guess........are the instructor's initials M.A.?
    This was my first thought as well.

    If this was the instructor, delete most everything he told you in the class.

    A good shoot is a good shoot. PERIOD. No, it doesn't matter if you use and SBR. No it doesn't matter if you use a can. No it doesn't matter if you use a gun with an after market trigger. No it doesn't matter if you are naked at the time, etc, etc, etc!

    All the people that worry about this kind of stuff would be MUCH BETTER off worrying about the fact that an asteroid could fall from space and hit them or being bitten by a snow leopard while living in Texas.



    C4

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    First off I wanted to post this question in the "general" page but I did not have access.

    Ok I'll preface my question with a scolding that my friend got from the instructor at our last pistol training class. See he had the 3.5lbs disconnecter in his Glock and the instructor made it clear that a lighter trigger dose not belong in a carry gun. The instructor is active LEO and claims to testify as an expert witness on a federal level on a somewhat regular bases. He claimed that if you find yourself in court after a defensive shooting that the prosecution will have a field day. He said that he has testified in court where the defendant was accused of having a "hair trigger" and the prosecution built a case around that one point and made the defendant look like a vigilante.
    I have a few concerns about this claim but overall I guess it's possible.

    So with that in mind. All of us here that have built our own AR's for whatever reason, are we setting ourselves up for disaster if, God forbid, we ever use our AR's in a defensive shooting?
    I have some questions regarding this scenario:

    (1) How is a prosecutor going to know you built your own AR? Even if he asks you, there is absolutely NO reason you should say so. It's called the Fifth Amendment. Use it liberally. So, unless you have some kind of documentation squirreled away that constitutes a written confession or similar, I don't see how a prosecutor could ever find out.

    This brings me to my second question:

    (2) Even if the prosecutor was able to find out you built your own AR (probably because you didn't listen to what I said about the Fifth Amendment!), it wouldn't be admissible. It is not relevant in the least in regards to a self-defense scenario. Definitely more prejudicial than probative. Your defense attorney (or PD for God's sake) should be able to keep something like that out.

    Don't focus on such petty minutiae. Instead, do this:

    (1) Learn your jurisdiction's laws regarding self-defense;
    (2) Identify your target; and
    (3) Shoot straight.

    My $.02.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron_c View Post
    Here's an example of having something that is "too proficient" for it's own good, and can get the owner in trouble.

    A cop is sitting behind an overpass clocking cars as they pass. A Toyota Camry passes, going 75 in a 65. The LEO considers going after the person but decides it isn't that big a deal. Five minutes later, a bright red Porsche with a body kit, wheels, modified exhaust goes by- 75 in a 65 as well. I think 99% of us have been around long enough to know that the cop is a thousand times more likely to go after the Porsche (or any other sports car) because it's a "fast" car and the driver is using it to speed (although by no more than many others). The LEO walks up to the Porsche's window and sees a roll cage and racing seats, etc. I think we can all agree, this guy is NOT getting out of this ticket- and if you think it has nothing to do with the car he drives, you're kidding yourself.
    In the example you used, the people are breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit.

    In the example we are talking about, the person is shooting someone under circumstances allowed by the law using a firearm that he legally owns and is legal to own in his locale.

    Using an older or less capable firearm does not equate with a get out of jail free card, nor does it permit you to employ lethal force in situations where a more modern, capable one would not.
    Last edited by Ed L.; 07-21-11 at 23:18.

  8. #48
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    And remember boys and girls when having the luxury of a choice on wht you have on hand :
    Using an AR of any configuration and expending ,say, 7~8 rounds out of a normal capacity magazine, thus not emptying it in the process of a SD shoot shows a lot more mental stability, dicipline and self control than someone who shoots an attacker 14 times using a 6 shot revolver...

    'Course with some of the shot to miss ratios I've seen published here and there in regard to LEO proficiency, it would be more like shoot 14 times with the 6 shooter and mabe hit with 2.

    For those of you who go to the range more frequently to practice and try to improve the skill set, I thank and congratulate your for your perseverance.

    For the rest who go once a year to qualify because they are forced to in order to retain thier job, you should be ashamed of yourself if for no other reason than with your lack of any real skill you've just become a detriment to the partner who can shoot, because now he's not only gotta watch the bad guy(s) he's also gotta watch you to make sure you're not gonna hit some standers by because of your sloppy technique. Then he's gotta watch his back twice because he can't really count on you not having a ND in his back or that you'll be able to defend him should a BG or three flank your non~shooting ass.

    You wanna be a LEO, carry a gun and mabe play shoot em up occasionally then train for it constantly.
    If firearms training is such a burdon, move over to parking ticket division. I hear they have nice uniforms and also are afforded a pension.

    Otherwise your slackin' ass is gonna get one of your own or some other innocent hurt due to ineptitude.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    In the example you used, the people are breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit.

    In the example we are talking about, the person is shooting someone under circumstances allowed by the law using a firearm that he legally owns and is legal to own in his locale.

    Using an older or less capable firearm does not equate with a get out of jail free card, nor does it permit you to employ lethal force in situations where a more modern, capable one would not.
    I agree with you completely, both on the point above and on your opinion regarding the OP's topic. However, this is an example of how we as human beings automatically think "oh, he's in a fast car, he is speeding" or "oh, he shot someone with an assault rifle, he was assaulting". It's human nature. That said, I would rather face the worst-case legal scenario possible than cower in a corner, allowing myself/my family to be hurt/killed.

  10. #50
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    On the subject of lighter, better and crisper triggers/pull weights, I don't know if it's been mentioned before by anyone, but I've always thought if I were in a shooting and wounded or killed someone in self defense, and some prosecutor brought up the fact that I have a Geissele trigger in my AR or the Apex kit in my M&P 9 as a method of proving my supposed "guilt," that my defense would be (and is) that I want my rounds to land where I intend them to impact, and that a better aftermarket trigger increases my chances of hitting what I'm aiming at (I.e. the scumbag who's threatening my life or the lives of others in my presence), and more importantly, DECREASES the chance of one of my rounds missing its intended target and god forbid striking an innocent passerby in the background behind or around my intended target.

    I'd rather die than kill an innocent person because I missed my intended target. That would be unbearable for me personally. And that is why I run lighter/crisper (IMHO "better") triggers in my guns. They certainly do NOT substitute for proper training and fundamentals, but they certainly improve accuracy and help when you do snatch the trigger a bit, especially when under stress. Of course if you slap the shit out of any trigger, that round won't go where you're intending it to, regardless of what type of trigger it is or what you've done to it.

    That's my take anyways.
    S/F
    Paul

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