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Thread: Do you think building your own defensive rifle is a legal nightmare?

  1. #51
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    I understand what you are saying, Aaron.

    I think a lot of people who mention the "looks bad in court" argument carry it to levels far beyond what Ayoob ever intended.

    Remember, he first started mentioning it in the early 1980s, which was a completely different time, when most police officers were armed with revolvers that may or may not have been loaded with hollowpoints.

    It's different today, as most police are armed with high capacity automatics loaded with hollowpoints and often carry an AR-15 sytle "patrol rifle" in their car. Also at the time he started writing about it, the phrase "home invasion" was not in the dictionary. Also, compare the number of places that have a castle doctrine and issue CCW permits to any citizen with a clean background who passes a perscribed course now to the time when Ayoob first advanced that
    argument.

    If it does end up in court, a decent attorney can make a lot of these arguments look foolish. If the prosecution makes a big deal about a legally owned AR, the defense attorney can respond, "You mean like the type of rifle carried in this city's patrol cars which is the most common type of rifle you will find in police cars across the country?" Or the longarm manufactured by more American companies than any other?"

    If you want to worry about all of the things that might look bad in court, you should probably eliminate time spent online on forums like this, since afterall, a police forensic team might get their hands on your computer and the prosecution might try to consture it to indicate 'an obsession with weapons designed to kill people.'

    And you probably should not own more than three guns total, less the prosecution accuse you of building up an arsenal.

    And those training classes with high speed combat experienced trainers--the prosecution could argue that no civilian needs to know those things and that any civilian who pays money to learn them was just itching for an excuse to blow someone away--like those poor guys who kicked his door in and were only engaged in a property crime when he shot them with his faux M4 as though he was reinacting Blackhawk Down or Red Dawn.

    There is no end to what a prosecutor *might* try to do.

    Again, can you show me a case where someone was prosecuted for a different/custom gun where they did not do something wrong that made the shooting unjustiifed under the laws where it took place, or where the shooting took place in a state where an AR is otherwise legal to own and is legally owned by the shooter?
    Last edited by Ed L.; 07-22-11 at 00:10.

  2. #52
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    a good shoot is a good shoot.. dont mater how you do it..

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetreatHell View Post
    On the subject of lighter, better and crisper triggers/pull weights, I don't know if it's been mentioned before by anyone, but I've always thought if I were in a shooting and wounded or killed someone in self defense, and some prosecutor brought up the fact that I have a Geissele trigger in my AR or the Apex kit in my M&P 9 as a method of proving my supposed "guilt," that my defense would be (and is) that I want my rounds to land where I intend them to impact, and that a better aftermarket trigger increases my chances of hitting what I'm aiming at (I.e. the scumbag who's threatening my life or the lives of others in my presence), and more importantly, DECREASES the chance of one of my rounds missing its intended target and god forbid striking an innocent passerby in the background behind or around my intended target.
    A great point, Retreat Hell.

    As I've written, in the wake of a defensive shooting where the police have taken the gun from the known shooter they are not typically going to weigh the trigger and compare it to another gun of the same type, nor take it apart and examine it for aftermarket parts.

    On *some* forums there are *some* people who will endlessly argue that if you happen to shoot a person or persons who invaded your home and you are found to have a reduced trigger, you will transform a good shooting into a case where you will be prosecuted.

  4. #54
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    This is the best discussion of its kind that I've seen, and a credit to this group.

    I'm a lawyer and occasionally teach CPL classes, although I am neither a prosecutor nor a criminal defense lawyer so I don't claim the same expertise as those who are in one of those specialties. Having said that, I would agree with most comments above, particularly:
    -Generally, a good shoot is a good shoot, and a bad shoot is a bad shoot - this is key anywhere, whether Alaska or NYC.
    -I would worry more in a strongly anti-gun jurisdiction
    -Stick is right that any shooting is going to be very unpleasant legally, even if 100% justified.
    -I would keep in mind civil liability concerns as well as criminal, but of course you have to be alive to have civil liability.
    -If you could have a credible expert testify to the benefits of an accessory or modification for aimed, controlled fire, it should be OK. Things like VFGs, quality triggers, red dots, etc.
    -I would avoid punisher emblems, zombies, etc. even though they shouldn't have any bearing on legality.
    -I would avoid anything that would significantly increase your chances of an accidental discharge. So while a Geissele SSA would probably be fine, for example, I wouldn't use an 8-ounce benchrest match trigger on a defensive gun. This is basically common sense.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeOtherGuy View Post
    T
    -If you could have a credible expert testify to the benefits of an accessory or modification for aimed, controlled fire, it should be OK. Things like VFGs, quality triggers, red dots, etc.
    No disrespect. I understand what you are saying and agree with the point about having an expert testify if it comes to that.

    But have we ever had the case where a red dot sight proved to be a proble in court in an otherwise justified shooting?

    Using that line of logic, which I understand is not yours, people who use shotguns for home defense should be worried about equipping them with recoil pads since a prosecutor might argue that the pad makes the gun much more comfortable to shoot, which makes it easier to fire quickly & kill more people.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    No disrespect. I understand what you are saying and agree with the point about having an expert testify if it comes to that.
    Just to be completely clear, I'm not saying you necessarily would need expert testimony on features of your defensive firearm. I am simply saying that one test for what accessories or modifications should not raise any legal issue is whether you could expect to get an expert witness to testify that they are sensible and can further your lawful defensive actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    But have we ever had the case where a red dot sight proved to be a proble in court in an otherwise justified shooting?
    None that I've heard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    Using that line of logic, which I understand is not yours, people who use shotguns for home defense should be worried about equipping them with recoil pads since a prosecutor might argue that the pad makes the gun much more comfortable to shoot, which makes it easier to fire quickly & kill more people.
    I agree on this concept, and taken very far this whole question becomes a ridiculous thought experiment with all bad answers, as you illustrate.

  7. #57
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    While I can only speak for my own area, I have never heard of someone getting prosecuted for an SD shooting based on the type of firearm or any mods done to it. Our area (Central Florida) is pretty firearms friendly and in general, if deadly force is allowed in a particular incident, the manner in which it's applied or the device used to apply it don't matter. I mean, does it really matter if you hit him in the head with a ball bat or run him over with your car? Dead is dead. It's the circumstances leading up to it that will make the difference

    On the Federal end, I have worked with numerous ATF agents in the Middle District of FL and have never heard of any Federal prosecutions for this kind of thing either. It's hard enough to get them to take a legit firearms case sometimes

    As several others have said, a good shoot is a good shoot. Now that doesn't mean that the BG's family can't sue you in civil court where the burden of proof is much lower than it is in criminal court. Would the family's attorney latch on to any modifications to your weapon which may convince a jury that you were just itching to kill someone? Quite possibly.

    I wouldn't want to shoot an intruder with my high speed AR anyway as you know that thing will sit in evidence for a year or so. My HD guns are a little more mundane and I won't miss them as much while they're gone

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    Simplify things by being the only person left to testify.

    Does wonders
    Dead men tell no tales.


    C4

  9. #59
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    I hate these types of threads. They are really no different than the "what if I use an NFA weapon for self defense" threads.

    We can sit here and "what if" a scenario to death. However this is one common denominator that I have seen mentioned in every one.

    A good shoot is a good shoot, a bad one is a bad one. That's it.



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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    As I've written, in the wake of a defensive shooting where the police have taken the gun from the known shooter they are not typically going to weigh the trigger and compare it to another gun of the same type, nor take it apart and examine it for aftermarket parts.
    :
    I'm not an attorney. I have been an inter-city LEO for the last 19 years, a supervisor for the last 10 yrs.

    You are correct. I've never seen the trigger pull measured, or the gun compared to see if aftermarket parts have been installed. I have checked guns to see if they have been altered to fire full auto. (Only done when there is reason to believe suspect's gun was F/A. Usually can tell by bullet patterns on the side of buildings, cars, people, ect.) This does not require any dissembling of the gun. Just keep the trigger depressed while working the slide and see if the sear resets or not. (Empty gun of course.)

    The ONLY time I could see trigger pull being an issue is if the defense was arguing that the gun discharged accidently. As in , "It's not my clients fault he accidently shot that nun, the gun went off by itself!"

    As many have already stated, if you're legally permitted to posses the firearm in your hands at the time the incident occurred, end of story. Once past that, it's either a good shooting, or it's a bad shooting.

    If you're really worried about the perception your gun might have on a jury, I guess you could have it dipped in a rainbow pattern. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.
    Last edited by Beat Trash; 07-22-11 at 15:25.

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