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Thread: Fate of the ACOG

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    If I was to get this ACOG, what range would I zero an 11.1'' gun with Mk. 262 at to make it compatible with the BDC, because this optic might beat the new Short Dot 1-8X for me.
    Not trying to snipe you but, out of curiosity, what do you see yourself using your rifle for that you need an ACOG for it?

    I wouldn't worry about the BDC, in my VERY limited experience it is close to useless other than as reference points. Assuming that you are going to be using it in a role against humans are you expecting the to stand still facing you long enough for you to move up and down the range tree until you figure out their range? Works great on range targets, but I tried to use the ranging function on my neighbor across the lake (off the rifle, just holding it in my hand) He was working around the house outside and the few times that he happened to be facing the right direction, he didn't hold still long enough for me to pic a stadia that matched. He was just working in the yard, if he had been actively trying to shoot me, I would think it would have been even harder. Not only that, but the reticle is MUCH smaller than it looks like in the pictures. Maybe someone who has had alot more training can get something out of it, but I couldn't.

    That being said, I would imagine that you will just have to play with it and see where your bullets land at each stadia line and adjust to pick what you feel is the most useful compromise for your uses.
    Last edited by Crow Hunter; 07-30-11 at 08:35.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    Not trying to snipe you but, out of curiosity, what do you see yourself using your rifle for that you need an ACOG for it?

    I wouldn't worry about the BDC, in my VERY limited experience it is close to useless other than as reference points. Assuming that you are going to be using it in a role against humans are you expecting the to stand still facing you long enough for you to move up and down the range tree until you figure out their range? Works great on range targets, but I tried to use the ranging function on my neighbor across the lake (off the rifle, just holding it in my hand) He was working around the house outside and the few times that he happened to be facing the right direction, he didn't hold still long enough for me to pic a stadia that matched. He was just working in the yard, if he had been actively trying to shoot me, I would think it would have been even harder. Not only that, but the reticle is MUCH smaller than it looks like in the pictures. Maybe someone who has had alot more training can get something out of it, but I couldn't.

    That being said, I would imagine that you will just have to play with it and see where your bullets land at each stadia line and adjust to pick what you feel is the most useful compromise for your uses.
    The role of the optic will be 50-600m, and I had become familiar (confident in my ability) with a TA31-ECOS G in the past.

    I had actually become pretty fast with the ACOG's BDC, and ranging. Especially close up, or very far away. (25m, and 500m+)

    Also (call me gay) but I had my ACOG mounted to an airsoft rifle for a while, and used it to success. You'd be surprised how close airsoft rails are to M1913 spec sometimes.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    The role of the optic will be 50-600m, and I had become familiar (confident in my ability) with a TA31-ECOS G in the past.

    I had actually become pretty fast with the ACOG's BDC, and ranging. Especially close up, or very far away. (25m, and 500m+)

    Also (call me gay) but I had my ACOG mounted to an airsoft rifle for a while, and used it to success. You'd be surprised how close airsoft rails are to M1913 spec sometimes.
    You have more experience with them than I do. I only owned a TA33for about a month before determining it wasn't my "thing".

    Definitely not gay. One of the reasons I chose to use a RDS is because of what I prefer on video games.

    I always like to see the reasons why others make their choices and compare to my limited experience.

    Thanks

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimdabew View Post
    I will always have an ACOG sitting on top of one of my rifles. It is a jack of all trades optic.
    ACOGS are quality optics but a low power variable is must more of a jack of all trades optic than an ACOG is.
    Pat
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    What remarkable advances in variable power optics have been made that weren't around 10 years ago?
    I have both variable, fixed and ACOGs, I like them each for different reasons.

    The TA-33 remains one of my favorite all-time optics. Light weight, quick ranging, versatile distances and clear glass, sure they aren't great at CQB, but beyond 25 yards they easily hold their own.

    All will be around for the foreseeable future.
    Simple good daylight illuinated reticles that give you red dot type speed, reticles with a BDS built in and low power variables with a range from 1-6,8. These new scopes are ACOG and Red dot killers frankly. Small red dots will still have a place but the place for fixed power optics like the ACOG and full size red dots like the Eotech and full size aimpoints is coming to an end.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    Not trying to snipe you but, out of curiosity, what do you see yourself using your rifle for that you need an ACOG for it?

    I wouldn't worry about the BDC, in my VERY limited experience it is close to useless other than as reference points. Assuming that you are going to be using it in a role against humans are you expecting the to stand still facing you long enough for you to move up and down the range tree until you figure out their range? Works great on range targets, but I tried to use the ranging function on my neighbor across the lake (off the rifle, just holding it in my hand) He was working around the house outside and the few times that he happened to be facing the right direction, he didn't hold still long enough for me to pic a stadia that matched. He was just working in the yard, if he had been actively trying to shoot me, I would think it would have been even harder. Not only that, but the reticle is MUCH smaller than it looks like in the pictures. Maybe someone who has had alot more training can get something out of it, but I couldn't.

    That being said, I would imagine that you will just have to play with it and see where your bullets land at each stadia line and adjust to pick what you feel is the most useful compromise for your uses.
    BDC reticles work great in real life as well from what my friends have told me coming back from Iraq and Afganistan. Many times they know the range because they have lazed the target area where the enemy is before they engage. Then just hold on the appropriot mark on the reticle and shoot.
    Pat
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Simple good daylight illuinated reticles that give you red dot type speed, reticles with a BDS built in and low power variables with a range from 1-6,8.
    Daylight illuminated reticles have been around a long time, nothing new there. There are some nice 1-8x scopes out there, but the only ones I'd consider as acceptable are also about 4-5x what an RDS is going to cost you.

    I love how people try something on a square range, in standard shooting positions, and who've never shot in combat and claim they're as fast or whatever. I've not been in combat but having tried them in classes that relied heavily on non-traditional shooting positions (rollover prone, supine, kimchee squat etc.) shooting over/under and around barricades, they're aren't as fast as red dots, they're not as forgiving when it comes to head position etc. I've tried them, I've timed them, factor in non-standard shooting positions and you're not nearly nearly as fast in these positions. Sorry but if they're not as fast in a shooting class, that teaches non-traditional positions, they're certainly not going to become so in combat.

    Everything has a cost over and above money, accuracy for speed and vice versa. That basic concept hasn't changed. A variable powered optic of 10 years ago, is still essentially the same as a variable powered optic of today.

    These new scopes are ACOG and Red dot killers frankly.
    Not really, see above. Factor in money, weight and durability and it's pretty much down to personal preference. Are they marginally better? Perhaps, but it's not an objective statement of fact. The above statement is at best a subjective (and rather hyperbolic) opinion.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 07-31-11 at 18:09.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    Daylight illuminated reticles have been around a long time, nothing new there. There are some nice 1-8x scopes out there, but the only ones I'd consider as acceptable are also about 4-5x what an RDS is going to cost you.

    I love how people try something on a square range, in standard shooting positions, and who've never shot in combat and claim they're as fast or whatever. I've not been in combat but having tried them in classes that relied heavily on non-traditional shooting positions (rollover prone, supine, kimchee squat etc.) shooting over/under and around barricades, they're aren't as fast as red dots, they're not as forgiving when it comes to head position etc. I've tried them, I've timed them, factor in non-standard shooting positions and you're not nearly nearly as fast in these positions. Sorry but if they're not as fast in a shooting class, that teaches non-traditional positions, they're certainly not going to become so in combat.

    Everything has a cost over and above money, accuracy for speed and vice versa. That basic concept hasn't changed. A variable powered optic of 10 years ago, is still essentially the same as a variable powered optic of today.



    Not really, see above. Factor in money, weight and durability and it's pretty much down to personal preference. Are they marginally better? Perhaps, but it's not an objective statement of fact. The above statement is at best a subjective (and rather hyperbolic) opinion.
    Lots of folks who have been in combat think highly of variable power optics like the Short Dot. I also train with my gear and I am also a trainer and you can do quite well with a good low power variable. It has its weakness in akward positions but that is often over stated. I have timed myself and done multiple drills using myself and others using red dots, irons and low power variables. Like I said before the eye relief issue is often over stated. Yes its a disadvantage in situations that are likely to be a factor in about.05% of real life shootings. While the magnification you gain can he a help in over 50% of real lifeshootings. Not just for shooting but also for target identification.


    Low power variables of today are not the same as those 10 years ago. We have made huge advancements in this area of glass.
    Last edited by Alaskapopo; 07-31-11 at 18:26.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Lots of folks who have been in combat think highly of variable power optics like the Short Dot.
    I didn't say people don't think highly of them. They're great optics but they serve a different role than the RDS or ACOG and as I stated they're 4-5x the cost of an Aimpoint and 2-3x the cost of an ACOG. Not to mention about 3x as heavy. Are they great optics when more precision is needed? Sure, do they everything better? Not so much...again there is a cost involved and if they did everything better than everyone would have one. Neither the ACOG or RDS is going anywhere soon...and I'd bet in another 10 years there are still going to be more of them than there are Short-Dots or Premier 1-8x.

    I also train with my gear and I am also a trainer and you can do quite well with a good low power variable. It has its weakness in akward positions but that is often over stated.
    How can it be overstated?

    No low power variables of today are not the same as those 10 years ago. We have made huge advancements in this area of glass.
    What advancements are you talking about? Quantify them. Have there been improvements? Sure. Are they RDS/ACOG killers? Not so much.

    I say this fully appreciating what the low-powered variables do, I've owned and still own them. They're great optics but they don't do everything well.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 07-31-11 at 18:29.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    I didn't say people don't think highly of them. They're great optics but they serve a different role than the RDS or ACOG and as I stated they're 4-5x the cost of an Aimpoint and 2-3x the cost of an ACOG. Not to mention about 3x as heavy. Are they great optics when more precision is needed? Sure, do they everything better? Not so much...again there is a cost involved and if they did everything better than everyone would have one. Neither the ACOG or RDS is going anywhere soon...and I'd bet in another 10 years there are still going to be more of them than there are Short-Dots or Premier 1-8x.



    How can it be overstated?



    What advancements are you talking about? Quantify them. Have there been improvements? Sure. Are they RDS/ACOG killers? Not so much.

    I say this fully appreciating what the low-powered variables do, I've owned and still own them. They're great optics but they don't do everything well.
    Sure like I said earlier now we have scopes that combine the following, day light visible reticle (red dot bright) with a BDC reticle with a true 1x on the bottom and magnificaiton as high as 8x on the top. There are only a handful of scopes that combine these features today and 10 years ago none did. The first scope to combine these was the Short Dot.
    Link to article on Vickers site.
    http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/short-dot/

    While in my opinion there is still a place for small RDS sights like the T1 on pure CQB guns and as back up optics. Nothing beats a quality low power variable as a do all jack of all trades optics. I have used the following optic combinations in my years as a police officer and firearms trainer. Eotech, Aimpoint M4 with 3x magnifier, TA33 ACOG with T1 Aimpoint in off set mount, TR24 and a Swarovski Z6i. While there are some positions where the variables are harder to use compared to red dots, they do everything else as well and they do distance far better. That is my opinion based on using and training with these optics.

    Also as to your question regarding the over statment of shooting from akward positions. Most officer involved shootings that I am aware of with patrol rifles take place at close range from the off hand position. Some have the officer using cover and kneeling or going prone. While there are times like int he LA bank robbery where the officers had to fire under a vehicle with the rifle canted these situations are not the norm. You seem to think that you will always be in a situation where you will have to be curled up in a ball on your side shooting the rifle canted. Hell when I went through basic sniper training back in 2007 I had no problem using my Nightforce 5.5-22x from urban prone under a barricade in the training. Yes its harder to use than a red dot in these positions but its not a deal breaker and if its that important to you put a back up red dot sight on your gun in an off set mount for those type of situations.

    Pat
    Last edited by Alaskapopo; 07-31-11 at 18:54.
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
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