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Thread: FailZero and supressors...

  1. #1
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    FailZero and supressors...

    To clarify from the beginning, this is NOT a complaint thread. Just observations.

    As many of you know, we in Washington state finally had the law changed so that we may actually use our legally owned supressors.

    In celebration of this, several large supressor shoots were held in various locations around the state. I attended the one on the Kitsap peninsula with my M4 "frankenabortion", Gemtech M4-96D, Beretta 92fs and Gemtech G9.

    For this shoot, I installed a recently aquited FZ complete BCG, and hadn't cleaned or lubed the rifle for approx 500 rounds. of non-supressor shooting prior.

    During the 2 hours I was there, a friend and I fired approximatly 600 rounds through the rifle, all suppressed, and ended up carbon welding the supressor to the bi-lock. I was unable to remove the supressor at the range, and took it home for cleaning.

    Info: The rifle is a Stag/CMT upper, lower, FCG, reciever extension, and buffer, a Bushhamster M4 barrel (1/9) 14.5 inch with permanently attached bi-lock. This rifle has approx 8000 to 10000 rounds down the pipe,most semi, some (somewhere around 1000 to 2000 rounds) FA on the upper receiver only as I loaned it to a local type 7 SOT for some shooting several times(also the reason for the approximation of the round count).

    Issues: had 5 failures to lock back on the last round. Three times were with my friend who was there with me and was with his ammunition and magazines. Ammo was Bvac bulk, and the magazines were two FDE Pmags and a single USGI aluminum. I experienced two similar situations with USGI Okay brand magazines. All malfunctions took place near the end of our shooting session, and were followed by several other magazines that locked back the BCG just fine. Other then that, it ran like a top. By this point, the rifle was hot enough that it was too hot to touch even the upper reciever much less the barrel or the can. As it were, the can was putting off so much heat that it was causing visual interferrence in sighting on the targets.

    Observations: Gun was filthy as a 3 dollar whore after a three day weekend with no shower. Hand cycling the rifle felt gritty as a gravel road. Was able to remove the M4-96D by hammering it off with a derlin armorers block, a fair amount of solvent, and lots of elbow grease.

    After disassembly, I noticed several impacts on the circumference of the buffer that matched up perfectly in shape to the buffer retainer pin. This is brand new wear, never seen before. Doesn't affect function though. Makes me wonder if the carrier may have been machined just a tad too short and is allowing the buffer to come too far forward and impact the buffer retainer pin. Dissapointing if true.

    About the FZ BCG: I had read many review claiming that fouling simply wipes off and cleaning baked on carbon buildup from the rear of the bolt was super easy. I found none of this to be true.

    I had to scrub the crap out of the BCG, and it still won't get completely cleaned. As in it looks like the entire BCG is stained so it's a kind of gunmetal grey color. Scraping carbon from the end of the bolt required just as much work as before on the non NB BCG that was in it previous.

    The rest of the rifle took far longer to clean then normal due to excessinve carbon buildup, but I expected this so it's no big deal. Some caked on fouling in the upper had to be removed with a brass brush because the plastic mil-issue cleaning kit brush simply wouldn't touch it. Cleaner used was Lucas feul injector cleaner. I've been using this for awhile because it simply eats away carbon as that is what it's job is on engine valves and it works great on guns and is way less smelly then most gun cleaning solvents. Works best if applied and let sit for a little bit. It will creep and soak into fouling and break it up.

    Conclusions: Frankly, I don't care about the new, non super-silver color of the BCG. It was too shiny in my opinion to begin with. Now it just looks like a heavily worn standard BCG. No big deal especially considering that it still feel just as slick now as it did when new and continued working under those conditions. As advertised, none of the NB flaked off or was worn off, just discolored.

    Insofar as the failures to lock back, because the rifle continued to work fine after those incidents and locked back on several more magazines and the brass ejection remained consistent throughout the shooting session, I really have no idea what caused the issues. Could be shitty ammo that my friend supplied ( he supplied all of the ammunition we shot that day) some excessive carbon buildup somewhere, etc. My bet is on the heavy fouling and lack of lube. as the ammo was ejecting very consistently during the shoot whenever observed.

    I checked the buffer roll pin to see if it was working it's way out and binding on the buffer spring and found it to be fine. Carrier key was plenty tight and staked properly. Gas rings were all brand new at the beginning of the shoot.

    Weapon was cleaned and lubed with marine wheel bearing grease, and after dealing with a family thing this morning, a return to the range resulted in the following: Rifle function fine unsupressed and supressed through 8 magazines with zero issues. After verifying zero with the can, was hitting an 8 inch steel plate at 150 yards shooting approx 1 round per second and hitting every round out of a complete magazine. Shooting done from the bench.

    My prognosis is that the FZ BCG *can* be run dry under "normal" conditions, even in some difficult conditions, but even it will have minor issues when all lube is burned off, the gun is frikken filthy, and being run with a supressor. To be honest, I believe that with the original BCG in place, the gun would have failed much much earlier considering how dirty it was. As noted earlier, when cleaned, I lubed like I normally do. Just because the FZ BCG *can* be run dry, doesn't mean that it *should* be. All moving metal parts work better with lube no matter what they are made from or coated with.

    Final FYI: This rifle is a build of my own. In those 8 to 10K rounds it has down the pipe, I have not had a single failure caused by the gun previous to this. This is a beater rifle and gets used regularly in training where it has been subjected to shitty weather conditions, mud, extreme fouling, etc. and it runs like a typewriter. Truly is my go-to gun and after it proved itself, I would take this over a new Colt any day of the week simply because I know it works no matter what.

    post script: The most difficult part to clean was the outside of the supressor and the end of the barrel. After shooting his first few magazines, my friend laid the rifle down on the carpet covered bench without thinking and melted a bunch of the nylon carpeting to the supressor and barrel. Was a ****ing bear to remove. I didn't make him clean it because he supplied the ammo for the days festivities.
    Last edited by GrumpyM4; 07-25-11 at 06:17.

  2. #2
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    I have two of the FZ BCG's. I have learned over time, that the "Wipes clean after shooting" statement, is only true if you run the gun wet. If you run a FZ dry and allow the carbon to bake on, you might as well bust out the dental picks and scour pads.

  3. #3
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    post script: The most difficult part to clean was the outside of the supressor and the end of the barrel. After shooting his first few magazines, my friend laid the rifle down on the carpet covered bench without thinking and melted a bunch of the nylon carpeting to the supressor and barrel. Was a ****ing bear to remove. I didn't make him clean it because he supplied the ammo for the days festivities.
    Same thing happened to me with my first 556 can. I ended up just dumping a few mags through it next time I was out and wiping the melted carptet off with a couple shop rags.

  4. #4
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    The reason that the bolt didn't lock back on the last round is most likely do to the fact that the BCG is going to fast. BM barrels are WAAAAY over gassed. Then you couple that with a suppressor (which basically doubles the amount of pressure) and you have a really fast moving BCG.

    I don't think you mentioned what buffer and spring you are using, but I would go with an H3 and a RED Tactical Spring Co CS buffer spring. This will slow things down a bit.

    All BCG's need cleaned and lubed (no matter the finish). So when you had about 500rds in the gun, that would have been a good time.

    It is true that some finishes will allow you to get away with this for longer, but at the end of the day, you aren't doing yourself any favors (which you found out).



    C4

  5. #5
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    I've found that after a few hundred rnds the carbon does wipe off my FZ bcg except the bolt tail but to this point it has scraped off rather easily
    Last edited by jet80tv; 07-25-11 at 10:24.

  6. #6
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    Even before I bought the FZ carrier, I figured that "wipes clean with just a rag" really means "wipes cleaner with just a rag" and I haven't been disappointed. If you want to keep your weapon free of carbon fouling, it's easier if you do a lot of little cleanings than one big one
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  7. #7
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    600 rounds of supressed fire is a tall order for any gun. A malf here and there should be expected with that kind of heat and filth.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  8. #8
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    In addition to what Grant stated, I can tell you for a fact that a Bushmaster barrel with that many rounds through it has a gas port the size of Venessa Del Rio's hole. I was examining gas ports a couple of years back in BM carbines that probably had less than that through them and the port was "egged" out.

    Add the suppressor to it and you're getting a shitload of gas through that thing.



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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    600 rounds of supressed fire is a tall order for any gun. A malf here and there should be expected with that kind of heat and filth.
    Legal can use in WA state is still pretty new, and there are a lot of people that are going to be fine tuning things for awhile. Blow back, heavy cleaning regiments, and baffle strikes are things that are going to suddenly start popping up in circles where there weren't previously any issues.
    Stick


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  10. #10
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    I can't wait to get an osprey for my fnp tactical, now we just need to get SBR's legal here in Washington. I think there will be a learning curve for us though, although I think there are quite a few guys that we're shooting suppressed long before it was legal.
    Last edited by TonyTacoma; 07-25-11 at 15:01.

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