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Thread: Favorite 100 yd non-magnified zero target?

  1. #31
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    Is it correct to say then, that a 25m "zero" is actually a 25m "initial intersection" which then facilitates a ~300-350m "zero"?
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    IME and with my eyes those squares aren't big enough or contrasting enough at 100. I have my own target that is similar to that but with black and yellow but i was looking for somethin with a larger aiming point. I printed some of the targets inculus linked to earlier at 200% and am goig to try a mix of those and 100% versions.
    The problem I've found with printing your own targets is that most printers are limited to 8.5x11. Larger grid targets can be bought at the gunshop/range/Wally World. Maybe they'll work for you if the printed ones don't work out.

    I find it easy to sight in with the standard service rifle targets or the large round Shoot & See stick on targets even with iron sights. Just measure ring width & diameter for reference. The last target I used had a 3 inch X Ring. Knowing that, I could see through the spotting scope how much adjustment needed to move the POI to where I wanted it
    Last edited by MistWolf; 07-26-11 at 14:15.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I thought you mentioned earlier taking Randy's carbine class. If so, you should have gone through the steps to achieve a 200 yard zero, starting with 25 yards to get on paper, 50 to tune it up, and 200 to get it right.
    Sorry Randy had us zero at 50 yards. We then shot (but did not zero) our rifles at 200 yards, not 200 meters (the real "zero" that corresponds with 50 yards).

    Interesting definitions in the USMC rifle marksmanship manual:

    Section 9-2

    9002. Types of Zeros
    Battlesight Zero (BZO)

    A BZO is the elevation and windage settings required
    to place a single shot, or the center of a shot group, in a
    predesignated location on a target at 300 yards/meters,
    under ideal weather conditions (i.e., no wind). A BZO
    is the sight settings placed on your rifle for combat. In
    combat, your rifle’s BZO setting will enable engagement
    of point targets from 0–300 yards/meters in a nowind
    condition.

    Zero
    A zero is the elevation and windage settings required
    to place a single shot, or the center of a shot group, in a
    predesignated location on a target at a specific range,
    from a specific firing position, under specific weather
    conditions.

    True Zero
    A true zero is the elevation and windage settings required
    to place a single shot, or the center of a shot
    group, in a predesignated location on a target at a specific
    range other than 300 yards/meters, from a specific
    firing position, under ideal weather conditions (i.e.,
    no wind).
    Last edited by DWood; 07-26-11 at 14:08.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icculus View Post
    But I do know that when I set my optic so POI = POA at 50 yrds; my rifle indeed has a 50 yd zero. Perhaps we're just arguing semantics but whatever.
    This is what led to my earlier statement. You are incorrect. I do not know why you continue to cling to that incorrect belief.



    And I do understand why I chose it. With my load in my rifle an initial intersection if you like at 50 yds gives me a secondary intersection around 215 (maybe it's 220 but we're talking minor differences at that distance when using a non magnified optic) and yes I've verified it at the far-zero so it wasn't an incomplete process.
    This is illogical. Why would you do it this way? Who taught you to do it this way? If you have access to a 200 yard range and the ability to shoot at that distance why wouldn't you finish the job and just get the proper 200 yard zero?

    With that "50 yd zero" I've only got 2 inches of hold-over or under at every distance between say 5 yds and 250 yds. So am I doing it for the wrong reasons? Especially when I'm far more likely to be shooting at 50 instead of 100 and don't want to always have to hold over at those closer distances. And if I've verified impact and know my holds am I any less likely to be effectively accurate at distance than you with a 100 yd zero?
    See above, you're staring from an incorrect assumption and working backwards.
    If you are going to be shooting at 200 yards and closer the 100 yard zero makes the most sense. it has ~2.5" of overall deviation from LOS while the 200 (or 215?) has a total of ~5" of deviation. The 100 yard zero means you only ever hold over, never under, and you can guarantee hits (shooter ability aside) within 2.5" or the mechanical limits of the ammo out to 200 yards. When you factor in unconventional firing positions and the possibility that the gun may be canted to 45* or even 90* the 100 makes even more sense still.

    At this point I'm done with this thread. Feel free to get the last word in if you are so inclined or we can simply leave at alone, we'll agree to disagree and you can think I'm wrong to your hearts content.
    This has nothing to do with the last word or anything else. It has to do with the fact that for every one person posting on a forum there are 100 reading, and we should make efforts to ensure that those readers are getting a complete and correct picture. Understanding these concepts is important, and understanding the difference is important.

    I used to think like you, which is why I understand where you're coming from. But if you want a 200 yard zero and the benefits that come with it, get a 200 yard zero. I've settled on the 100 yard for me, for my guns, for the kind of shooting I do, because I understand the concepts, have thought through the pros and cons, and weighed them on the range by doing a variety of types of shooting with both.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHULTZ View Post
    Is it correct to say then, that a 25m "zero" is actually a 25m "initial intersection" which then facilitates a ~300-350m "zero"?
    There is a sticky that I cited earler that calls the first intersection a "near zero" and the second a "far zero". Since it was made a sticky, I presume that the information is credible.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWood View Post
    Sorry Randy had us zero at 50 yards. We then shot (but did not zero) our rifles at 200 yards, not 200 meters
    Seriously? What range did this happen at? Pop's?

    (the real "zero" that corresponds with 50 yards).
    This is the problem with this line of thinking (or one of them). It's not about having anything correspond with anything else. It's about getting a zero with the gun that works the way you want it to. 50 is a stepping stone to 200, regardless of whether it's meters or yards. There is not some magical thing that happens if your initial intersection is at 50 yards and your zero is at 200 meters.
    Last edited by rob_s; 07-26-11 at 14:12.

  7. #37
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    It is a 200 meter zero.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Seriously? What range did this happen at? Pop's?


    This is the problem with this line of thinking (or one of them). It's not about having anything correspond with anything else. It's about getting a zero with the gun that works the way you want it to. 50 is a stepping stone to 200, regardless of whether it's meters or yards. There is not some magical thing that happens if your initial intersection is at 50 yards and your zero is at 200 meters.
    Actually there is some magic. I can set my scope (notice I didn't say zero) to hit a target at 50 yards at the two ranges available to me (Trail Glades or Markham Park). I don't have access to a 218 yard range.

    The magic is that I can use that 50 yard aiming point adjustment to hit any target out to 218 yards (200 m +/-) just by putting the red dot in my S & B Short Dot on the target.
    Last edited by DWood; 07-26-11 at 15:48.

  9. #39
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    ......
    Last edited by DWood; 07-26-11 at 15:35.

  10. #40
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    We use a 100-yard zero for our patrol rifles. We'll have the students zero for 1 & 1/2" low at 25 yards, to get us in the ballpark. We then move back to the 100 yard line and shoot 6" bulls for final confirmation. As usual, a guy can be dead on at 25 yards,but might need some dope at 100 to be zeroed for the real distance. As long as the student is holding decent groups at 100, we'll adjust them until they are dead center of the bull.

    We've found that theoretical zeros will get you close, but you have to go to the actual distance you want to be zeroed for, to actually be zeroed. Although, I can't take any credit for this, as it was a principle adopted from Kyle Defoor. It has served us well. My vote is for a 6" bull for a target, and use a 100 yard zero for reasons that Rob already stated. Target ID becomes a huge problem at 200 yards, so a 100 yard zero makes more sense for our use.
    Last edited by PatrolRifleGroup; 07-26-11 at 15:18. Reason: Grammar

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