Ballistics for 410 pistol (Judge/Governor)?

**snakyjake** · 07-28-11, 23:30

There's an article in American Rifleman: Taurus Judge Ammunition.

Anyone have FBI ballistic data on these rounds out of a pistol shotgun?

I know there's another 8 page thread that made fun of the Judge, but I didn't see ballistic data as any proof. Also read Box O' Truth #41, but it doesn't appear they used ammunition specifically designed for a pistol shotgun.

Thanks,
Jake

**glocktogo** · 07-29-11, 12:10

What's your angle? Are you looking for proof as to why the Judge should be discounted as a serious defense sidearm? Or are you simply trying to find an excuse for secretly liking it?

It's a turd. Trying to load it up with super duper defensive rounds is like trying to adapt the Tomahawk missile system for use on a sampan. Why do that when you have access to Aegis class cruisers?

**Grizzly16** · 07-29-11, 13:52

Originally Posted by glocktogo

What's your angle? Are you looking for proof as to why the Judge should be discounted as a serious defense sidearm? Or are you simply trying to find an excuse for secretly liking it?

It's a turd. Trying to load it up with super duper defensive rounds is like trying to adapt the Tomahawk missile system for use on a sampan. Why do that when you have access to Aegis class cruisers?

Best use I can think of for a judge is a snake gun on the river while fishing. .410 bird shot is murderous on snakes.

**Glock17JHP** · 07-29-11, 14:27

Tried to reason with my brother-in-law about this subject after he bought one for SD in MO and was bragging about what he thought it could do...

The conversation turned sour real quick due to his ego, and he refused to talk further about firearms at all as a result!!!

Oh well...

**Fail-Safe** · 07-29-11, 15:55

We know that penetration is absolutely vital, projectiles must penetrate deep enough to not only reach the vital organs and the Central Nervous System, but also breach them. From all angles.

We know that projectiles traveling at pistol caliber velocities dont produce enough energy to make it a wounding factor. Try as they might, gun magazine writers and ammunition manufacturers still have not been able to defy physics.

We know that lightweight, high velocity projectiles(typical handgun velocities) dont have the mass, and subsequently the momentum to reach deep. You'll note in the Service Pistol Duty and Self Defense article that there are no truly lightweight and low mass projectiles recommended.

So, lets look at the loads from Federal Mr Clapp evaluated.

The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration. The next load is, according to Mr Clapp's wife, 63 plated 4-shot(Mr Clapp does note the difference of 4-shot and 4B). Again, that 63 tiny pellets, each with their own mass and momentum. Shotgunworld.com doesnt recommend 4-shot in 12 gauge, why would anyone recommend it in 12 gauge, why would anyone recommend it in 410?

Moving onto Remington's offering, well, they offer nothing really different than Federal's loads. Mr Clapp does note that they seemed like they are from a harder alloy. OK! How did he quantify that statement?

Then he speaks of Winchester's loads. "Defensive Discs". .40 cal projectiles that are less than a quarter inch thick. It might be one thing if these were true wadcutters, the penetration might be better. Lets not forget about those 12 or 16 BB-shot pellets. They dont defy physics either.

I love this line from Mr Clapp

There is also the over-penetration factor to be considered; it’s a problem with much of today’s defensive guns and loads.

[Mr Hand] REALLY?!?!? [/Mr Hand]

Yes, the defensive guns out there are the problem with over penetration. I blame Glock, SIG, Beretta, S&W, etc.

As for the loads, he offers absolutely no proof to back his claim. Last I checked, ammunition designers strive to create projectiles that have increased penetration and expansion, even after encountering objects that might degrade the performance.

From the same paragraph

[/quote]Since this new .410 ammunition is designed to work by means of cumulative effect, there are multiple projectiles, none of which are particularly heavy. Penetration would, therefore, be limited, but the wound would be quite wide. In urban situations, this factor alone supports the .410 handgun concept.[/quote]

He apparently has some grasp of physics. That said I remember an old saying, "every bullet has a lawyer attached to it". That would seem to be magnified. More so with some of these 15, 20, and 63 projectiles per trigger pull. Terminally speaking, one would have to fire several times in hopes that the quantity will substitute for quality

Just my thoughts.

**Glock17JHP** · 07-30-11, 14:17

Fail-Safe,

You said:
"The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration."

00 Buck typically has no trouble meeting the 12 inch requirement even at 1,050 FPS, so I am not sure why you would make the above statement. 000 Buck will obviously penetrate even deeper at the same velocity, all else being equal.

If we are to correctly evaluate the loads that can be safely fired from 'The Judge', we need to use that specific revolver and shoot the loads designated for use in it... and shoot correctly calibrated gelatin, and then collect data. I would think that there will be other issues to consider separate from the ammunition itself, like the recoil the shooter has to deal with, and the pellet spread at different distances. Has anyone credible actually done any REAL testing like this?

In the long run, I think we will find that there are many, many BETTER choices for SD use that are already out there... in both weapon and ammunition choices. To me, this is a weapon system designed more on ego rather than intellect.

**Alaskapopo** · 07-30-11, 16:37

I don't give much credit to Mr. Clapp or most of the gun rag writers.
Pat

**kh86** · 07-30-11, 21:38

Ever heard of anyone seriously suggesting a .410 shotgun for defense? All of a sudden put it in a revolver and you got yourself the hammer of Thor...

**Fail-Safe** · 07-31-11, 13:23

Originally Posted by Glock17JHP

Fail-Safe,

You said:
"The first two from Federal offer either 4 000B or 4 00B pellets at 1,200fps. In 12 gauge, with double the pellets there are still cases where it doesnt meet the 12 inch standard for penetration."

00 Buck typically has no trouble meeting the 12 inch requirement even at 1,050 FPS, so I am not sure why you would make the above statement. 000 Buck will obviously penetrate even deeper at the same velocity, all else being equal.

Actually my info was gleaned from a discussion a while back on the old TF.com. In it it was discussed that one pellets began to seperate themselves from the pattern that penetration suffers. According to the article discussed, at 5 yards there is "good coverage", which in my mind means the pellets are spread.

Also, at higher speed there can be more deforming of the pellets which can effect the penetration as well. With the Judge/Governor, there is rifling in the barrel that could cause several othet problems with pellets.