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Thread: Can I get a no BS answer? Defensive Carbine accuracy?

  1. #1
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    Can I get a no BS answer? Defensive Carbine accuracy?

    My defensive rifle has, as of right now, fixed sights. Before I go spending money on an optic of any kind I want to know that I actually "need" one. I understand that an optic is likely to improve accuracy. That's not a topic I care to get into.

    So from a fixed sight defensive Carbine what MOA should I be happy with?

    Not what 20" NM gun can do but what is a realistic goal for Carbine.

    I like to shoot/stock XM193 if that helps.



    Thanks.

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    If I recall correctly you need to be able to shoot 3 moa consistently to qualify marksman on an Army Qualification Test.

    That being done with old well worn rifles with iron sights.

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    Guess what everyone did before optics came around? They killed people with iron sights. All you really need is a decent light and a sling and you should be GTG.



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    As always, it really depends on what you're planning to do with the carbine. Like Iraqgunz said, a sling and light should be the priorities.

    A fighting carbine capable of producing 3 MOA is a good carbine, and more than acceptable for practical combat. Mechanical/inherent accuracy exists in the barrel quality and how well a firearm is assembled.

    Optics don't improve mechanical accuracy, per se -- magnification makes it easier for us to see targets far away and place shots. One-power (no magnification) optics allow us to get onto the target more quickly, keep both eyes open and broaden our field of view (although one can also train to keep both eyes open when aligning fixed sights). It is usually easier and faster to superimpose a dot onto a target, than to align sights onto a target, as they are all on different focal planes. For some, an optic may actually reduce wobble zone.

    Will an optic improve your accuracy? Not necessarily. Will an optic enhance your vision and make it easier for you get onto target? Very likely. Does everyone need an optic? Absolutely not.

    Hope that's no BS enough. YMMV.

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  5. #5
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    Carbine Accuracy

    A mil-spec carbine is capable of 4MOA. This standard is derived from a combination of the technology of the manufacturer meeting or exceeding the mil-spec standards for accuracy and the mil-spec ammunition to be fired through it.

    The mil-spec standards for accuracy is 2MOA and the mil-spec standards for ammunition accuracy is 2MOA. These to factors combine to give you the overall accuracy standard of 2MOA.

    It is likely that due to manufacturing technology the gun itself can produce accuracy better then 2MOA but the standard is 2MOA.

    OTM ammunition can produce accuracy results better than 2MOA also but the standard is 2MOA. The typical ammunition tested is XM193 and M855. However, there are other JAG approved rounds that are Open Tip Match (OTM) rounds and can perform to 1MOA.

    The biggest anomaly to accuracy is the shooter and the shooter makes up the third and final component to overall accuracy.

    The U.S Army marksmanship standards suggest that a shooter should be able to shoot a 1.5" group at 25 meters. This extrapolates to the same shooter shooting a 6" group at 100m or 6MOA.

    6MOA is seen as a standard of marksmanship accuracy using a Government issued M4 carbine, service approved ammunition and a decent shooter behind the gun.

    Just like with the manufacturing technology, the OTM (JAG approved) ammunition, the shooter can produce results greater than 1.5" at 25m.

    The Redback One marksmanship standards are as follows:
    A. 1" five round group at 25m
    B. 2" ten round group at 50m
    C. 4" ten round group at 100m


    For more information on this subject please feel free to PM or email me.

  6. #6
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    well said progod! that's no bull

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    Defensive Carbine accuracy is pretty much irrelevant, as long as it's not completely awful.

    IMO, you get a sight in order to make acquisition quicker and more reliable.

    If you can afford it, I think a Defensive Carbine needs a sling, a light and an unmagnified red dot sight. Personally, I like the Aimpoint micros for their small size and 5 year battery life.

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    You need to be able to hit the vital zone of your selected target at the maximum distance you might engage said target. This will dictate your MOA reqquirement.

    Shooting bad humans at 50 yds and in, you might be able to get away with 8-10 MOA. Shoot them at 200 yds and in, you'll probably need closer to 3-4 MOA.

    So how big is your target and how far out do you need to engage?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    My defensive rifle has, as of right now, fixed sights. Before I go spending money on an optic of any kind I want to know that I actually "need" one. I understand that an optic is likely to improve accuracy. That's not a topic I care to get into.

    So from a fixed sight defensive Carbine what MOA should I be happy with?

    Not what 20" NM gun can do but what is a realistic goal for Carbine.

    I like to shoot/stock XM193 if that helps.



    Thanks.
    Me, sling, light, iron sites. At ranges I am most likely to use the gun, etc, I didn't see how the opitics was really going to assist greatly for my potential needs, and one can buy a lot of ammo for the cost of good optics, and bad optics is not an option.

    I'm not a HSLD person with am M4 by any means, and find I can make quick accurate shots on man sized targets at 100 yards (with combat accuracy), which is 85 yards longer then any distance in my dwelling.

    So, as I understand it, optics comes down to what's it going to be used for and why.

    They do look might cool however, and if one has the $$$$, cool factor is fun too.
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  10. #10
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    If you are talking about the mechanical accuracy of a carbine with irons I don't think you understand the advantage of an RDS. You will probably not shoot smaller groups off the bench with an RDS, you will probably be able to shoot faster and more accurately from unconventional positions, while moving, and in low light.

    Have you had any formal carbine training?

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