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Thread: Can I get a no BS answer? Defensive Carbine accuracy?

  1. #11
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    Do you want what you will likely be able to get away with or want to be more cautious (that or simply get the bang for your buck)?

    Really for a defensive weapon for a civilian something like 10MOA is generous for the likely situation. If you want to be more cautious or simply not feel jipped then stick to around 3-4 tops with the gun and ammo.
    Luck is awesome. The more proficient you are at what you do the luckier you seem to be.

    Do what you love and love what you do.

    Shooter and survivalist by hobby.

  2. #12
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    I used to be a volunteer instructor with the Appleseed Program (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) where the goal was for students to learn to shoot 4moa, with irons sights, or optics.

    Considering what I learned there, as a student, and then later on when I was instructing, it seems to me that for general defensive shooting, an iron sighted carbine is sufficient.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaSierra View Post
    I used to be a volunteer instructor with the Appleseed Program (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) where the goal was for students to learn to shoot 4moa, with irons sights, or optics.

    Considering what I learned there, as a student, and then later on when I was instructing, it seems to me that for general defensive shooting, an iron sighted carbine is sufficient.
    A lot of things are 'sufficient', doesn't mean you can't make them better.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart View Post
    You need to be able to hit the vital zone of your selected target at the maximum distance you might engage said target. This will dictate your MOA reqquirement.

    Shooting bad humans at 50 yds and in, you might be able to get away with 8-10 MOA. Shoot them at 200 yds and in, you'll probably need closer to 3-4 MOA.

    So how big is your target and how far out do you need to engage?
    I guess that I'm looking to know is what's the most I can expect out of my carbine with the ammo I have chosen to stock. Currently I'm right in there I guess. Most groups are just under 3" to slightly over 3" @ 100yds.
    If it were a scoped rifle that would not be all that good, I know. But I guess it's fair to say that 3moa is good for a carbine? I have to admit, this is my only rifle with irons. I've always opted for glass on my other guns but like I said. I don't think I need one on this gun and honestly I'm kinda excited to learn and apply the RIBZ setup.

    My main problem with shooting 100yds is that the front sight more than covers the bullseye that I'm shooting at. It seems that the front sight is about 9MOA in width. The issue is that I have to just pick a spot on the paper, memorize the sight picture, press the shot and repeat. So basically my groups move around a bit. I mean, I can shoot five, have a good group 2-3moa but the group may be 4 o-clock of the center. Shoot the next target have the same size group but the group moves to say 7 o-clock. It's virtually impossible to hit center of the bullseye. I know that this is not a target gun, and that being of a few inches of center for a defensive rifle is OK in the real world.

    So if 3moa is thought as good then I'll work from there with my cadence.

    And for the record, no I don't think I'll ever use a rifle defensively at 100yds. You have to watch what you say around here I've noticed or someone is likely to run with it.

  5. #15
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    For a lot of years I found iron sights to be "sufficient". But sufficient to me equates to minimum acceptable performance. Who wants to strive for mediocracy?

    I bought an Aimpoint T-1 some time ago. While iron sights may still be sufficient, a quality RDO such as the T-1 is superior.

    When you take the issues of shooting while moving, low light, ect. and add to the mix middle aged eyes, iron sights lose their appeal quickly. My concept of a "KISS" carbine includes an Aimpoint.

    As to acceptable accuracy for a defensive carbine? My carbines are capable of greater accuracy than I would actually need. So I don't worry about the mechanical accuracy of the gun.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    I guess that I'm looking to know is what's the most I can expect out of my carbine with the ammo I have chosen to stock. Currently I'm right in there I guess. Most groups are just under 3" to slightly over 3" @ 100yds.
    If it were a scoped rifle that would not be all that good, I know. But I guess it's fair to say that 3moa is good for a carbine? I have to admit, this is my only rifle with irons. I've always opted for glass on my other guns but like I said. I don't think I need one on this gun and honestly I'm kinda excited to learn and apply the RIBZ setup.

    My main problem with shooting 100yds is that the front sight more than covers the bullseye that I'm shooting at. It seems that the front sight is about 9MOA in width. The issue is that I have to just pick a spot on the paper, memorize the sight picture, press the shot and repeat. So basically my groups move around a bit. I mean, I can shoot five, have a good group 2-3moa but the group may be 4 o-clock of the center. Shoot the next target have the same size group but the group moves to say 7 o-clock. It's virtually impossible to hit center of the bullseye. I know that this is not a target gun, and that being of a few inches of center for a defensive rifle is OK in the real world.

    So if 3moa is thought as good then I'll work from there with my cadence.

    And for the record, no I don't think I'll ever use a rifle defensively at 100yds. You have to watch what you say around here I've noticed or someone is likely to run with it.
    Sounds like what is to be expected without going more into a precision set up.
    Luck is awesome. The more proficient you are at what you do the luckier you seem to be.

    Do what you love and love what you do.

    Shooter and survivalist by hobby.

  7. #17
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    I go back and forth from irons to 4x. I usually switch to irons when I think my fundamentals might be slipping. Shoot with irons to still know I got it, then back because I can't see Jack without glasses and that 4x really helps.

    Start with irons and worry about sights after a couple thousand downrange.

  8. #18
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    3-4 MOA within 100 yrds is good..but honestly...I did not have a top notch red dot but I prefer irons over red dots...with a good flash light...its perfect...... plus it all comes down to the shooter...dont be a "bench" fairy and come tell us that you can shoot 2MOA supported (that accuracy has very little to do with you and more so with the gun) and start shooting in positions you might find yourself in...on your back, kneeling, side, on the move ETC...run drills..........reason I say this because when there is a situation...the bad guy is not going to wait for you to set up, place a bag or sand bag/gun vise and squeeze the trigger...sorry I do not know your background and I might be saying things you already know I just hate "bench fairy" shooting bragging

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehun View Post
    3-4 MOA within 100 yrds is good..but honestly...I did not have a top notch red dot but I prefer irons over red dots...with a good flash light...its perfect...... plus it all comes down to the shooter...dont be a "bench" fairy and come tell us that you can shoot 2MOA supported (that accuracy has very little to do with you and more so with the gun) and start shooting in positions you might find yourself in...on your back, kneeling, side, on the move ETC...run drills..........reason I say this because when there is a situation...the bad guy is not going to wait for you to set up, place a bag or sand bag/gun vise and squeeze the trigger...sorry I do not know your background and I might be saying things you already know I just hate "bench fairy" shooting bragging
    I understand your point. I think that you must have a reference to build from. That is why I asked what I should expect from my gun. Not knowing what is acceptable and trying to speed up and fire from various positions is foolish I think. If I needed to work on the fundamentals first I would. But from the sounds of things my fundamental are at an acceptable level. So now that I know that I will start working on various positions and speed.

    Honestly I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if you were throwing insults at me or if you were speaking generally,
    I'd love to have you clarify the "dont be a "bench" fairy and come tell us that you can shoot 2MOA supported" comment.

  10. #20
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    Skinny sight post + ghost ring = 10x more than adequate.

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