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Thread: Can I get a no BS answer? Defensive Carbine accuracy?

  1. #21
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    I would never insult you..sorry if thats how I might have came across.

    About the bench fairy comment. I have a HUUUUUUUUUGE, personal problem when some people (especially at the range) start bragging how well they shoot WHILE THE GUN IS IN A VISE OR BI-POD OR BEAN BAG...then they report that they have shot sub 2MOA groupings....yes the GUN shot that, not the operator since all you had to do is pull the trigger.

    Now, I am a practical guy. If you have a gun/rifle or whatever...you must practice and shoot the way you will defend yourself...the bad guy is not going to wait for you to sit down...get your bag/vise ready..set the gun in the vise, wait for you to get ready.

    Now I am not saying that you shouldnt get your GUN sighted in the best you can...we all need to...but once the gun is sighted in...YOU must practice to get that accuracy while your on the move, in different positions UNSUPPORTED.

    Perfect Example...I sighted my gun in with 5 shots 25m..good and nice...then I did a Zig Zag drill, all my shots were in the but two in the shoulder. I am not happy that I missed the two shots that hit the shoulder but I am way more impressed with such results when someone can do that...than the ones who go to a range and vise up everything they shoot and brag how well they grouped at 100yds while the gun DIDNT EVEN MOVE.

    I AM NOT BASHING ON LONG DISTANCE SHOOTERS PAST 300+ yds

    This is how I feel about having a tactical rifle at your disposal and not a toy. If you own one of these rifles, you must train PRACTICALLY AND TACTICALLY not BENCH FAIRY-LY......you can buy a $3000 AR but if you do not know how to handle it tactically what is the point of having a tactical rifle...get my point?

    My best advice...sight in your rifle..and just perfect your grouping with drills that actually matter. FYI I have Fixed sights as well..less things to go wrong Dont worry about getting optics until you are perfect with irons
    Last edited by thehun; 08-04-11 at 00:30.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehun View Post
    I would never insult you..sorry if thats how I might have came across.

    About the bench fairy comment. I have a HUUUUUUUUUGE, personal problem when some people (especially at the range) start bragging how well they shoot WHILE THE GUN IS IN A VISE OR BI-POD OR BEAN BAG...then they report that they have shot sub 2MOA groupings....yes the GUN shot that, not the operator since all you had to do is pull the trigger.

    Now, I am a practical guy. If you have a gun/rifle or whatever...you must practice and shoot the way you will defend yourself...the bad guy is not going to wait for you to sit down...get your bag/vise ready..set the gun in the vise, wait for you to get ready.

    Now I am not saying that you shouldnt get your GUN sighted in the best you can...we all need to...but once the gun is sighted in...YOU must practice to get that accuracy while your on the move, in different positions UNSUPPORTED.

    Perfect Example...I sighted my gun in with 5 shots 25m..good and nice...then I did a Zig Zag drill, all my shots were in the but two in the shoulder. I am not happy that I missed the two shots that hit the shoulder but I am way more impressed with such results when someone can do that...than the ones who go to a range and vise up everything they shoot and brag how well they grouped at 100yds while the gun DIDNT EVEN MOVE.

    I AM NOT BASHING ON LONG DISTANCE SHOOTERS PAST 300+ yds

    This is how I feel about having a tactical rifle at your disposal and not a toy. If you own one of these rifles, you must train PRACTICALLY AND TACTICALLY not BENCH FAIRY-LY......you can buy a $3000 AR but if you do not know how to handle it tactically what is the point of having a tactical rifle...get my point?

    My best advice...sight in your rifle..and just perfect your grouping with drills that actually matter
    Shooting from a bench will let you know what the rifle is capable of. I do agree a lot of people (hunters come to mind around here) go out and sight in their gun from the bench and get some respectable groups and then plan do hit in the field from improvised positions and their are a lot of missed shots as a result. I generally only group shoot from the bench. I do drills from off hand, around barricades, kneeling and prone while timed. I am working on accuracy and speed. Shooting groups off hand gets boring fast. So I try to work these skills into what I might see in real life or at a match. I just purchases some MGM pesky poppers for use at the three gun matches I host and I plan on using them for practice quite a bit as well.
    That all being said some days I enjoy working up a new load and relaxing from the bench and shooting 5 5 shot groups to test the new load or to check how the gun is doing. It still tests your fundamentals of trigger control, sight or optic placement, and follow through. Any time you pull the trigger is good so long as you are practicing good habits.
    Pat
    Last edited by Alaskapopo; 08-04-11 at 00:35.
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Shooting from a bench will let you know what the rifle is capable of. I do agree a lot of people (hunters come to mind around here) go out and sight in their gun from the bench and get some respectable groups and then plan do hit in the field from improvised positions and their are a lot of missed shots as a result. I generally only group shoot from the bench. I do drills from off hand, around barricades, kneeling and prone while timed. I am working on accuracy and speed. Shooting groups off hand gets boring fast. So I try to work these skills into what I might see in real life or at a match. I just purchases some MGM pesky poppers for use at the three gun matches I host and I plan on using them for practice quite a bit as well.
    That all being said some days I enjoy working up a new load and relaxing from the bench and shooting 5 5 shot groups to test the new load or to check how the gun is doing. It still tests your fundamentals of trigger control, sight or optic placement, and follow through. Any time you pull the trigger is good so long as you are practicing good habits.
    Pat
    Agreed..but I think we both have experienced the "bench fairies"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    You will probably not shoot smaller groups off the bench with an RDS
    I do. Did it just last week in fact. Shot a BCM 16" midlength upper with irons, a Centurion Arms 10.5" upper with R-1, and the same upper with it's irons. I consistently shot groups that were at least 50% smaller at 50 yards with the H-1 than I did with either sets of irons. Group sizes with the irons were pretty much identical with the two different uppers.

  5. #25
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    I shoot better groups with an RDS too. What really boggles my mind is that when I zero on the bench and then stand up and shoot like normal, I have to re adjust my windage. I shoot about 2 MOA to the right on the bench than I do standing, kneeling or prone.
    "Perfect Practice Makes Perfect"
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    I'm not a HSLD person with am M4 by any means, and find I can make quick accurate shots on man sized targets at 100 yards (with combat accuracy), which is 85 yards longer then any distance in my dwelling.

    So, as I understand it, optics comes down to what's it going to be used for and why.

    They do look might cool however, and if one has the $$$$, cool factor is fun too.
    IMO RDS have nothing whatsoever to do with "looking cool" and I believe they are actually MORE important for the non-LE civilian shooter. RDS shine at improving target acquisition and target transition speed, and make the gun easier to shoot, as well as allowing one to keep their focus downrange which improves target discrimination as well as tracking. All seem like great skills to me for a homeowner looking to potentially employ a carbine against multiple attackers indoors, especially factoring in the likelihood that he's refusing to get training and not doing anything to maintain those skills.

  7. #27
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    Can you put 3 shots into a chest sized target at 10 meters with a reasonable amount of speed even though you're scared and blurry eyed because you just woke up?

    That's about all the accuracy you'll need for your average civilian encounter.
    Last edited by variablebinary; 08-04-11 at 06:53.
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  8. #28
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    I love the stories with guys bragging about shooting 2MOA groups while doing a backflip out of a Jeep. I've never seen it, & don't ever expect to.

    While I'm no super marksman, I've yet to shoot a group better than about 4MOA from a chrome lined 16" AR with XM193 type ammo from the bench with irons & about 6" standing (no sling).

    Gotta love the internet!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    Can you put 3 shots into a chest sized target at 10 meters with a reasonable amount of speed even though you're scared and blurry eyed because you just woke up?

    That's about all the accuracy you'll need for your average civilian encounter.
    This IS the hokey pokey.

    X1000

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    IMO RDS have nothing whatsoever to do with "looking cool"
    That's called a joke Mr Rob.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    and I believe they are actually MORE important for the non-LE civilian shooter.
    Hence my comments that the setup I use is specific to me and my recs, and not a generalized statement regarding iron sites vs RDS. RDS are found on many many guns of people with FAR more experience and knowledge then myself, so clearly not a fad or "tacti-cool" device.

    But, many have them on their AR because they look cool, all the cool kids have them, etc,

    At the same time, you have many who might be far better off spending their $$$ on ammo and range work vs expensive optics. You don't agree with that thought? I, as you do, know plenty of people with expensive optics on their tricked out AR who probably put 100rnds per year through them and if they ever actually need to use them in an SD situation, will be doing so from perhaps 10-15 yards max.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    RDS shine at improving target acquisition and target transition speed, and make the gun easier to shoot, as well as allowing one to keep their focus downrange which improves target discrimination as well as tracking. All seem like great skills to me for a homeowner looking to potentially employ a carbine against multiple attackers indoors, especially factoring in the likelihood that he's refusing to get training and not doing anything to maintain those skills.
    No disagreement from me. However, you have many who are now under the impression that unless the AR has some RDS on it, it's a useless hunk of metal you can't hit sh%$ with, etc.

    I enjoy AR with RDS, but I feel more then able to hit targets at SD ranges and for many, would rather see them spend that $$$ (as a quality RDS aint cheap) on ammo and a course or two.
    Last edited by WillBrink; 08-04-11 at 10:17.
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