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Thread: Can I get a no BS answer? Defensive Carbine accuracy?

  1. #31
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    I have been working with relatively new shooters at our drills nights for the last 4+ years and matches for 6+. I base my comments off of what I see with them.

    many of them are not going to go get training in a multi-day format. It's just not going to happen. In many cases it's like pulling teeth to get them to come out on one Tuesday night a month for 4 hours and spend $20-25. So the "ammo and training" argument, while often a truism, falls flat in many cases when put up against the realities of the world.

    Unlike the two-stage "i can't hit shit without spending another $200" trigger crowd, an RDS has a real, measurable, increase in performance at the distances where a homeowner is likely to utilize a carbine (in the very, very, rare instance where they might do so). Factor in stress, reduced lighting, a need to identify and discriminate targets (and the consequences of failing to do so), etc. and the RDS is a no-brainer. Fact is that while a light is a necessity, an RDS also improves the effectiveness of the light and they work phenomenally well in conjunction with one another.

    if people prefer irons that is of course their prerogative, and as long as they aren't responsible for my life I frankly don't give a damn, but this neo-retro thing of "I'm good enough with irons" that is being doled out as advice is dangerous IMO.

    I have yet to see a shooter who is proficient with irons (and we have several) that does not improve in terms of speed and accuracy at CQB distances with an RDS and a minimum of familiarization. If that same shooting ISN'T going to go take a class anyway, I think he's much better off buying an RDS than a new set of golf clubs if he has ANY delusions about using it as a defensive tool in the home.

    Think about how a fight in the home with a carbine is likely to go down, and all the actors likely to be involved, and I don't see how the RDS is even negotiable.

    Disregard all of the above if the AR is not part of your HD arsenal. If that is the case I suggest a variable power optic and a two-stage trigger, they seem to be all the rage at the range.
    Last edited by rob_s; 08-04-11 at 10:53.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    I feel more then able to hit targets at SD ranges
    If I had a nickle for every time I heard this...

    and then I turn off the lights, offer them multiple targets and non-threat targets on the move and/or behind cover, have them run the stage blind, simulate shooting under the bed from the support side, and it all goes to shit. and we haven't even addressed having the targets shoot back.

    Being able to "hit targets" either at the static range or running the latest drills from youstube is not the same thing.
    Last edited by rob_s; 08-04-11 at 14:41.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodgi View Post
    My defensive rifle has, as of right now, fixed sights. Before I go spending money on an optic of any kind I want to know that I actually "need" one. I understand that an optic is likely to improve accuracy. That's not a topic I care to get into.

    So from a fixed sight defensive Carbine what MOA should I be happy with?

    Not what 20" NM gun can do but what is a realistic goal for Carbine.

    I like to shoot/stock XM193 if that helps.

    Thanks.



    To the original poster, I just purchased a Stag Model 3 most of my shooting as a bench fairy(has been with bolt action target rifle my only shooting of an AR was in the Military in the 60's.

    I was interested in what accuracy I could achieve with a 16 inch barrel AR so I mounted a 20x weaver using commerical walmart grade ammo normal groups were 2.0-2.50, however after working up loads using Reloader 7 with Sierra 52 grain match bullets I'm seeing some groups of .875, so the gun is capable of 1.0 moa with quality ammo.

    Honestly I would consider anything under 3.0 @100 yards good with a standard carbine with commerical ammo.

    I did not buy it for target accuracy and will switch to my eotech after testing some more loads. The combination of the Stag/eotech makes for a nice light weight set up.
    Last edited by oldguy; 08-04-11 at 13:33.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    Can you put 3 shots into a chest sized target at 10 meters with a reasonable amount of speed even though you're scared and blurry eyed because you just woke up?

    That's about all the accuracy you'll need for your average civilian encounter.
    Agreed. And do it with whatever you are competent and comfortable with whether it be irons or RDS.

    For me, RDS is the only way to go because of my poor eyesight. My Aimpoint helps me tremendously.

    I wear glasses all the time. Can't see without them. I've even went so far as to do some shooting without my glasses. (Thinking of a middle of the night ordeal and don't have time to grab glasses) At 15 yds, shooting quickly, I can hit an IDPA target with the irons but impacts are all over the place. Not so with the RDS. I can put all rounds in center mass and that is what you want.
    Last edited by Scoby; 08-04-11 at 11:51. Reason: spelling
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I do. Did it just last week in fact.
    I've always had close to the same size groups when I zero at 25-50 but slightly better with irons out past 100. Maybe I try harder with irons at longer range. My irons shooting has been mostly "traditional" while the RDS shooting has been combat/SD focused, with a mindset of balancing accuracy and speed.

  6. #36
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    100 yards with Bench and front bag and 3MOA red dot



    100 yards with Bench and front bag and my MBUS with 12" sight radius



    100 yards kneeling and standing with IRONS.. VERY FAST SHOOTING..



    did it with this.. DPMS Lower and 16" PSA Upper with 1/7..



    I figure 4-6" with irons at 100 yards and 3-5" with RDS..

    I prefer just DOA target
    Last edited by YWHIC; 08-04-11 at 13:44.
    -----------------------------------------
    US Navy Vet. 1988-1992
    PSA/BCM 5.56 [Shelly],
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  7. #37
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    A 1X red dot optic isn't about making you more accurate, it's about making you faster. Someone once said the key to winning a gunfight is being as accurate as you have to as fast as you can. Shooting groups or military qualifications doesn't have much real-world application to combat shooting, especially where a civilian is concerned. The red dot is going to make you faster at getting rounds on target and it's also going to be easier to use under stress as well as being no-light visible. I guess it's a personal choice but to me it's worth every penny.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post

    Being able to "hit targets" either at the static range or running the latest drills from youstube is not the same thing.
    Never claimed it was. You should know me better then that by now.
    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com


    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    Never claimed it was. You should know me better then that by now.
    No, not you, but I hear this all the time at the range. "I don't understand why I'm not hitting the 10" steel target at 50 yards shooting Brokeback prone under a barricade at night when I shot 4" groups all day long from the bench at 100." A RDS will make this easier.

    If we establish that we need a tool for defensive purposes, and we acknowledge the reality of that application, we should want the best tools we can find for that application. "Good Enough" for me does not exist. I shot a rifle stage with irons this past weekend in 17.x seconds with no target further away than 50 yards (I didn't post my time because I was running the stage and didn't want the appearance of doing anything below board, plus I didn't care about the plaque). The Master class shooter (shooting in Expert) that shot it best did it in 16.x seconds. The next closest competitor to me was 21.00 seconds. This does not mean that to me irons are "good enough" as ALL of us could have shot it faster with an RDS.

  10. #40
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    prodgi
    Your 3MOA at 100 yards will cover 90% of your SD needs! Your still on a man sized target at 200 yards so unless your in a war zone your GTG. In a House or yard SD shoot 50 yards or less your cherry! Don't going buying into all the hipe on Optics! They are nice but not needed for your purpose! Save your money buy more ammo and practice!

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