Learning irons before optics; must we?

[rob_s]

I know, we're all supposed to say that everyone should learn irons first. Just like we're all supposed to learn to tell time on a clock with hands before we get a digital, learn to add in our heads before we use a calculator, etc. Of course, we're all supposed to start shooting with a 10/22 and a .38 revolver too, right?

My thinking is that the surest way to get a new shooter coming back is getting hits. At first, they don't really care about all that "what if an EMP knocks out my battery-operated sight and all I'm left with is irons" foolishness. They just want to get hits.

The surest way to get hits is with an optic. An RDS is the easiest optic available to explain to someone. "Put the dot where you want the bullet, pull the trigger". It doesn't get much easier than that. No "center the tip of the front sight in the hole in the rear sight, your eye will naturally center the tip for you, then put that on the target, focusing on the front sight not the target, ok now press the trigger". Just "dot on target, press". They can look through the sighting device, focus on the target, etc.

Later on, if they get interested in fighting/defensive use of the firearm they can obviously go back and learn the irons. There's nothing that says that starting out with an RDS automatically prevents someone from learning to shoot with the irons. And if they never get past the plinking-at-balloons stage, then they'll never really have use for the irons anyway once they've learned on the RDS.

[Stickman]

rob_s,


When we were learning to shoot, there were no electronic optics similar to whats in use today, so the mentality you describe is one that isn't going to continue IMHO. Optics increase hits (just like you said), and thats what counts at the end of the day. We've seen the shift in military use, and sooner or later we will see it in LE work.

I can start a fire and cook my food, but you won't see me doing it every day just to show that I can. The oven is better. The optic is better.

[Failure2Stop]

Rob- I think you may be in the running for the most new topics posted in a single day. At least none of them are about lube or M4 feed ramps!

Anyway-
I think that your reasoning is spot on. RDS makes hits easier, thus making shooting fun for the beginner. Hell, I like RDSs because they let me hit things faster, and I have spent way too much time behind irons.

All too often I think people take a weird self-gratifying position that shooters have to start out on iron sights, if only because they did. To hell with that. As Pat says "We need to get out of the romance of aligning iron sights and into the business of shooting smelly bearded men in the face more efficiently." (Or something reasonably close to that).

Of course we aren't going to start out shooting people in the face (if so, please let me know where you will be teaching), but the concept holds true.

[Submariner]

I think that your reasoning is spot on. RDS makes hits easier, thus making shooting fun for the beginner. Hell, I like RDSs because they let me hit things faster, and I have spent way too much time behind irons.

All too often I think people take a weird self-gratifying position that shooters have to start out on iron sights, if only because they did. To hell with that. As Pat says "We need to get out of the romance of aligning iron sights and into the business of shooting smelly bearded men in the face more efficiently." (Or something reasonably close to that).

Amen! Only hits count. The quicker, the better!

"Master irons first" is great when someone else is paying for ammo. Since I am paying for the ammo, my children start out prone with an Aimpoint and a dedicated .22LR upper learning sight picture (put the red dot where you want the bullet to go) and trigger control (press; ease to reset; sight picture; repeat as necessary.) Then manipulations, positions, shooting on the move and multiple targets. Then transition to a Colt carbine and a class with Pat. Shooting out back and an annual class for sustainment training. (Number One Son, in the backround below, has been to Boone County each summer since 2002 and his sister since 2004.)

The latest member of the Clan Paskey at his first carbine class. Mark commented that running the .22LR at home paid off in the end.

Number Two Son's first exposure to irons was turning off the Aimpoint and using it as a "ghost" ring. (Heresy!!!) Since we came home from Boone County, he learned to use the BUIS.

Of course we aren't going to start out shooting people in the face (if so, please let me know where you will be teaching), but the concept holds true.

I dunno about that. Timed brain shot shoot-off at 3-, 5-. 7-, 10-, 15-, 25-, 35-, and 50 yard lines on TD2 at EAG Carbine Operator Class. Number One Son left at the 25; Number Two Son left at the 35; Number One Daughter and Dad missed at the 50.

Then if they take to it (as my two youngest have) then I can take the time to refine their skills through such things as sight picture, trigger control, breathing control, etc.. But why not let em have fun at first.

Because then you have to spend time and money unlearning bad habits.

[A square 10]

having read thru this extensive thread i must agree with those who use the fixed BUIS [not the flip up one] in a cowitness position , it allows the RD to be the basis for your shooting but in that EMD case you have already been using your BUIS without realising it , i find it comforting to know i can use both

[markm]

Amen! Only hits count. The quicker, the better!

"Master irons first" is great when someone else is paying for ammo. Since I am paying for the ammo, my children start out prone with an Aimpoint and a dedicated .22LR upper learning sight picture (put the red dot where you want the bullet to go) and trigger control (press; ease to reset; sight picture; repeat as necessary.)

I agree with this. Like I said above, my kid is on the dot with a 22 rifle right now. He'll learn irons later if he has the interest in continuing to shoot.

My stance, however, is that there's a mental block in the notion that a Dot is ALWAYS faster than irons. It's just not true 100% of the time. If you have a shooter who is trying to do sight alignment at a short range target, then yeah... he's going to hurt his speed. Especially if it's a new shooter.

[Failure2Stop]

My stance, however, is that there's a mental block in the notion that a Dot is ALWAYS faster than irons. It's just not true 100% of the time.

My point is that the dot is faster to learn.
How fast one is able to pull the trigger is simply a function of finger speed.
The speed at which one is able to accurately hit a target will be dependant on the shooter's interaction with, and perception of, the weapon system and target.
Some are better/faster with different things.

But I am pretty sure that most of us are saying the same thing, simply colored by our preferences.

[HES]

Then if they take to it (as my two youngest have) then I can take the time to refine their skills through such things as sight picture, trigger control, breathing control, etc.. But why not let em have fun at first.

Because then you have to spend time and money unlearning bad habits.

I hear ya, but Im only talking about taking them out once or twice to see if they like it before transitioning them to irons. I think (I cant say for sure though) that life long bad habits will be built up after only a day or two at the range, especially with a youngling.

[Submariner]

I hear ya, but Im only talking about taking them out once or twice to see if they like it before transitioning them to irons.

And if at that point it is no longer fun but drudgery?

[XD40Colorado]

Irons are a backup for your primary. Modern high-quality RDS (meproo, eotech, aimpoint) are robust and quick to use (unless you have astigmatism in both eyes like legally-blind yours truly). Probably good to be at least basically familiar and effective with irons at least, just in case your swhit breaks - would really suck ass to need your RDS, have it go down, then not be able to hit anything with irons.

I have my scope in a QD mount. At the range I do scoped work, then take off the scope and shoot 10-15 rounds at. 50 yard silhouette just to make sure I can still do it