Learning irons before optics; must we?

[rob_s]

hit a milk jug at 100 yards. I have a problem with someone who can't do that all day long with irons.... now I know that's not the purpose of the aimpoint, but I'm just sighting it as an example of a shooter who doesn't know shit about the AR.

What difference does it make if he can do it with a dot and not with irons? Do you think there are really that many people out there that are capable of hitting a milk jug with an Aimpoint that can't (physical infirmities aside) do it with the irons too?

[McQ68]

2 cents The way I read it, you're asking to build a cheap AR to loan out to a new shooter, possibly to bring them into our community. They shoot, they like it and you say-for this amount of $$, you can get started. This gun is not the "best" gun with the top name brand parts and set up for a run/gun 3 day shoot class-right? From what I've read, you probably have enough spare parts to build several guns anyway YHM 9680 BUIS $70-that's why they're called back up, behind an EOTech 512. Easier/faster target acquisition for "new" shooters, don't have to do the whole class on sight alignment. Point and click for the video game crowd. Get them in the door 1st, then let them go from there.

[rob_s]

Get them in the door 1st, then let them go from there.

To an extent, this is exactly right.

[markm]

What difference does it make if he can do it with a dot and not with irons? Do you think there are really that many people out there that are capable of hitting a milk jug with an Aimpoint that can't (physical infirmities aside) do it with the irons too?

No. This guy wasn't looking at an aimpoint specifically. The point was that you can't buy shooting skills. My philosophy on the subject is don't use technology as a crutch for poor marksmanship.

Now my opinions are from my perspective of course. If someone just wants to build a casual plinker and doesn't need/want to be an accomplished shooter than the dot makes things easier.

The dots do have value for younger shooters or women who don't listen. My kid shoots the dot sight on the 22, and he hasn't learned rifle irons yet. He's really not going to have the attention span to learn irons at this point. But for adults... there's no excuse!

[rob_s]

It sounds like you're simply advocating making things more difficult just because... well hell, why are you advocating making things more difficult? Some fanciful notion that the enemy is going to detonate an EMP?

[markm]

That's the point. Shooting with irons shouldn't be that difficult.

[MassMark]

That's the point. Shooting with irons shouldn't be that difficult.

And there it is...

[rob_s]

There what is, exactly?

Is anyone honestly going to take the position that shooting with a red dot sight is not easier than shooting with irons?

[SHIVAN]

If you are deploying your weapon, or a student is, and it's equipped with a RDS: Shouldn't it have the irons up to begin with?

I have recently switched to shooting Aimpoints with the BUIS up. It doesn't seem to slow me down much, and it gives me a good frame of reference for using irons, if necessary.

A Marine SGT at one of Pat's EAG/10-8 classes on Quantico used an iron sighted 20" AR for the whole class. His only difficulty was with the asymetric prone positions, otherwise he cleaned up nicely on his targets.

Then again, he is a Marine.

[CarlosDJackal]

FWIW, I have found that the RDS is an excellent training tool for first time shooters even in learning how to shoot a pistol. What I have found is that not only can they can concentrate on achieving the proper trigger manipulation without the added "distraction" of trying to align their sights; if you combine the RDS with a BUIS, you can demonstrate what the proper sight picture should be (by having them use the BUIS by putting the dot on top of the front sight post).

After that it seemed a lot easier to then teach them the rest of the fundamentals even on a firearm that did not have an RDS. I must emphasize that I think that it is a very bad idea for anyone not to learn how to use the iron sights. YMMV.