Learning irons before optics; must we?

[Shao]

I simply cannot own a gun that has no integral or mounted mechanical aiming system. Irons are rudimentary. Even Aimpoints eat the dust sometimes and if you have no irons, then what are you going to aim your rifle with? The top pic rail? Plus, electronic optics are reliant on batteries. ..and I know I'll catch some flak for this one, but - What if we suffer some collapse of society and batteries run out? Irons never run out...

I believe that it would actually be detrimental to your shooting to start on a RDS. Being able to shoot irons is a basic fundamental of marksmanship. Learn irons and the RDS will come easy - learn RDS first, and you may become frustrated with iron sights, thus keeping you from effectively using a large majority of the firearms out there not equipped with such a luxury.

EDITED TO ADD: I even swapped the bead barrel on my 870 with a smooth-bore rifle sight version. I can nail a 2 x 4 with a Dduplex 28 steel 1oz slug at 100 yards.

[HansTheHobbit]

I simply cannot own a gun that has no integral or mounted mechanical aiming system. Irons are rudimentary. Even Aimpoints eat the dust sometimes and if you have no irons, then what are you going to aim your rifle with? The top pic rail? Plus, electronic optics are reliant on batteries. ..and I know I'll catch some flak for this one, but - What if we suffer some collapse of society and batteries run out? Irons never run out...

I believe that it would actually be detrimental to your shooting to start on a RDS. Being able to shoot irons is a basic fundamental of marksmanship. Learn irons and the RDS will come easy - learn RDS first, and you may become frustrated with iron sights, thus keeping you from effectively using a large majority of the firearms out there not equipped with such a luxury.

EDITED TO ADD: I even swapped the bead barrel on my 870 with a smooth-bore rifle sight version. I can nail a 2 x 4 with a Dduplex 28 steel 1oz slug at 100 yards.

100 yards from a smoothbore? I've gotta admit I've never seen anyone do that before!

[Doc Safari]

I simply cannot own a gun that has no integral or mounted mechanical aiming system. Irons are rudimentary. Even Aimpoints eat the dust sometimes and if you have no irons, then what are you going to aim your rifle with? The top pic rail? Plus, electronic optics are reliant on batteries. ..and I know I'll catch some flak for this one, but - What if we suffer some collapse of society and batteries run out? Irons never run out...

I've been down this road and that's why I choose an ACOG (no batteries needed) and a good folding backup rear sight. Even though the Tritium in the ACOG will deteriorate, it is guaranteed for 15 years according to their literature, and I've read posts on the net that even after dimming at the end of its first half-life it's still more than usable. Plus the fiber optic keeps it usable in the daytime regardless of the condition of the Tritium.

[Hmac]

Well throw some BUIS on your gun or you'd better be good at shooting from the hip. I read somewhere that the biggest hindrance to RDS in the battlefield is mud and general grime on the lens... makes sense....

If I believed for even a moment that I would ever have to take my rifle onto a battlefield, I would probably have backup iron sights on that particular rifle. I don't entertain that particular fantasy. Not sure where you're going to be fighting, but more power to you.

[MegademiC]

Mud on the lese, how about packed in your ghost ring/peep?

I can shoot 1.5 moa with an rds, I don't think irons will be more accurate to a point you could notice.

Batteries? Batteries aren't going anywhere, stock up if your afraid they will. If you still run out, buis. It's not hard to get hits at 200 with irons.

If your sight goes down you don't have to shoot from the hip. In fact, you'd be suprised how accurate one can be with no sights.

I still don't think learning them fist is necessary. Use rds to get the basics, trigger control, etc, then transfer to irons with detailed specifics. Teaching someone how to get effective hits with rds takes much less time, low hanging fruit first imo.

[R0N]

The reason the Marines now train with optics, is called the rule of primacy. Most people do best what they learned first, and it takes by some estimates ten times longer to un-program them from what they learned first. So we spend 2 weeks at TBS or boot training them to shoot with irons, than no where in the rest of their time in the Corps, unless they end up on a shooting team, do they have that much time to spend on just shooting ever again.

We also found that the sight alignment was the hardest thing to teach, so by simplifying that recruits and junior officers could focus on trigger control, natural POA, etc and actual learned to shoot better. During the pilot study, the junior officer were completely taught on optics and after qualification with RCOs they shot the table 1 again with back up iron sights and although their score with back up iron sights were lower than with optics, the average score with back up irons was higher than the average historical company score that learned to shoot with irons only.

[HansTheHobbit]

The reason the Marines now train with optics, is called the rule of primacy. Most people do best what they learned first, and it takes by some estimates ten times longer to un-program them from what they learned first. So we spend 2 weeks at TBS or boot training them to shoot with irons, than no where in the rest of their time in the Corps, unless they end up on a shooting team, do they have that much time to spend on just shooting ever again.

We also found that the sight alignment was the hardest thing to teach, so by simplifying that recruits and junior officers could focus on trigger control, natural POA, etc and actual learned to shoot better. During the pilot study, the junior officer were completely taught on optics and after qualification with RCOs they shot the table 1 again with back up iron sights and although their score with back up iron sights were lower than with optics, the average score with back up irons was higher than the average historical company score that learned to shoot with irons only.

Now that's interesting. Thanks for sharing. Did they ever publish any papers? I would like to read more on this.

[R0N]

Don't think it was published but it was in the paper that was in the decision paper sent to the Commandant.

[Shao]

100 yards from a smoothbore? I've gotta admit I've never seen anyone do that before!

Well not all day, but when I try really hard I'm at about 50%. Sometimes I can nail it two or three times in a row so my perception is probably a little skewed. My misses are usually barely misses though!

Mud on the lese, how about packed in your ghost ring/peep?

I would much rather pick the mud out of my irons than try to clean the lens of an optic in a bad situation. Just saying...

[HansTheHobbit]

I would say mud or snow poses an equal threat to both sights and optics. With low power optics, when you can shoot with both eyes open, it's not even a problem.