All CS Springs have rust issues?

[markm]

I will never by using any CS spring.

Same here. Ever since the dawn of springery, people have had some irrational fear of spring failure... especially in the gun realm.

[mark5pt56]

I can say from personal experience that the CS springs in my CProducts mags rusted simply sitting in the garage --and in a Golden Rod safe--no rust issues on anything else in there.

I never checked them until I saw a thread on them. I called Larry and I was promptly sent SS replacements.

I have been beating on two CP's mags for close to two years, one Aluminum and one SS. I left one CS spring in the SS mag and it's been heavily rusted for some time, I replaced it last week although it worked 100%. My opinion is that the body would fail first before a SS spring does.

Mark

[phattmatt]

Grant

You indicated a difference in cheap vs high quality CS springs, in regards to rust. Have you also noticed a difference in performance levels in regards to longevity as well? When a user sees CS springs for sale that cost $2-$5 is he thinking "these will last forever". But maybe they only last 1/2 or 1/3 of a $8-$10 CS spring?

Also, for everyone else. is the M4/AR platform the only one that uses SS springs? I have always cleaned and then lightly lubed my mag springs for my Glock/Sig/Rem 700/etc , assuming they were just plain steel. Usually I wipe them down with gun oil, let them sit a few minutes and then wipe off the majority with a clean cloth, so there is only a bit left in the pores of the metal. Or I use something like Mag Slick.

Thanks for the replies so far! BTW I just wanted to mention that I really scored when my son went trick or treating last, night. Mmmmmmmm candy.

[Shihan]

Are Wolff springs CS or SS?

I asked Wolf this same question and they say its neither and is a proprietary spring metal made by Keibler Elves in a secret tree on the planet Mongo.

[C4IGrant]

Grant

You indicated a difference in cheap vs high quality CS springs, in regards to rust. Have you also noticed a difference in performance levels in regards to longevity as well? When a user sees CS springs for sale that cost $2-$5 is he thinking "these will last forever". But maybe they only last 1/2 or 1/3 of a $8-$10 CS spring?

Also, for everyone else. is the M4/AR platform the only one that uses SS springs? I have always cleaned and then lightly lubed my mag springs for my Glock/Sig/Rem 700/etc , assuming they were just plain steel. Usually I wipe them down with gun oil, let them sit a few minutes and then wipe off the majority with a clean cloth, so there is only a bit left in the pores of the metal. Or I use something like Mag Slick.

Thanks for the replies so far! BTW I just wanted to mention that I really scored when my son went trick or treating last, night. Mmmmmmmm candy.

I have never run cheap CS springs so I cannot say. According to people that have done a lot more research than I on spring life, tell me that SS springs only have about 10% of their life left when they are NEW. SS springs are constantly shrinking (even if there is no load on them). Most companies recomend that you change out Mag, extractor, buffer and recoil springs (am covering pistols to AR's here) about every 3-5K or 3-5 years (which ever comes first).

ISMI and Tactical Spring Company basically say that their springs are good for a MINIMUM of 10K and most likely 100K. They have advised me that they have weapons with huge rounds counts on them and have yet to change any springs.

The reason why I like CS springs is because I am often times too busy to remember to change out springs and CS springs basically keep me from having to remember to change them.

In my experience, people don't know that their springs are worn out because they never test them. Here are a couple things you can do to test them:

Take a 30rd mag and load 30rds into it. Lock the bolt back in your AR. Insert mag and hit the bolt release. Did the round chamber? If so, then your buffer spring should be good. You can also measure it, but that doesn't always tell you what you need to know.

On mags, is your bolt not picking up rounds sometimes? This could be because your mag spring is warn out and is not driving the rounds up fast enough.

Having extraction issues (that often show up as double feeds)? Your extractor spring and insert most likely need to be changed out.


C4

[Aubrey]

I believe the Wolff springs to typically be a high-quality "music wire", which is still a good spring, though it may not have the same longevity in a high-temperature application as equal-quality chrome-silicon (CS).

I noted that Brownells, who has a MIL contract for mags, recently posted on their site that they are now coating their CS springs: "Choose from a mil-spec stainless steel spring or our new, high lubricity, dry-lube-coated chrome silicon spring that’s corrosion-resistant certified to 500 hour salt spray standards, and less prone to spring “set.” I agree that for the price the Brownells springs are unlikely to have undergone all of the same processing that an ISMI or comparable spring receives, but IMO it's commendable that they are addressing the corrosion issue.

Below are comments that I posted on another forum (not TOS):

Besides the obvious design criteria like spring rate, appropriate material and process selection are important components to ensure that springs remain functional and prevent relaxation or fatigue.

You will note from the source material cited below that not all spring wire alloys are the same. “Commercial” grade spring wire may be adequate for some applications, but it does not have the same properties that “valve” grade exhibits. The processing necessary and quality control necessary to achieve the consistent surface finish necessary for high-fatigue applications certainly adds to cost. Additional processing like shot peening and stress relief will also provide improved properties at additional cost.

Many of the firearms springs that we are concerned with are not exposed to high temperatures, so better-quality music wire springs may be quite appropriate. Depending upon where in the gun’s mechanism a spring resides and the conditions it is exposed to due to the combustion process or environment (e.g., saltwater), corrosion resistance may or may not be of particular concern. Shooters who swim with their carbines may have different material requirements than those who never leave the high desert.

From the Century Spring Technical FAQ
http://www.centuryspring.com/pdfs/techfaqs.pdf

What material is best for high temperature applications?
As temperature resistance increases, the material and processing cost typically increases significantly. Therefore, it is usually wise to select a material that provides resistance for the intended temperature range with minimal excess capability. The table below lists a variety of spring materials and their maximum service temperatures.

Wire Type / Max Temp.
Music Wire 250°F
Hard Drawn Carbon 250°F
Oil Tempered Carbon 300°F
Chrome Vanadium 425°F
Chrome Silicon 475°F
302 Stainless 500°F
17-7 PH 600°F
NiCr A286 950°F
Inconel 600 700°F
Inconel X750 1100°F

Most spring materials are defined in ASTM specifications. …A list of popular material types and the corresponding ASTM specification is given below.

Wire Type / ASTM Spec
Oil Tempered Carbon (Commercial) A229
Oil Tempered Carbon (Valve) A230
Chrome-Silicon (Commercial) A401
Chrome-Silicon (Valve) A877
Chrome-Vanadium (Commercial) A231
Chrome-Vanadium (Valve) A232
Hard Drawn Carbon A227, A764
High Tensile Hard Drawn Carbon A679
Music Wire A228
Stainless Steel A313

Fatigue Applications:
Since spring wire is primarily subjected to torsional stresses, maximum stress levels occur at the wire surface. As a result, material surface defects (i.e. seams, laps, pits, etc.) can dramatically reduce a spring’s fatigue life. Knowing this, wire manufacturers have developed surface preparation methods to restrict the size of wire surface defects as it leaves the mill. Wire produced with these methods is rated for fatigue applications and is often referred to as “valve spring quality”. Since these methods often involve costly processes, fatigue-rated spring wire is often significantly more expensive than its commercial grade counterpart. The two most popular materials for fatigue applications today are Music Wire (ASTM A228) and Chrome-Silicon Valve Spring Quality (ASTM A877). At wire sizes below approximately 0.080" (2.0 mm), Music Wire offers higher tensile strength; however, Music Wire’s maximum service temperature is less than that of Chrome-Silicon.

Corrosion Resistance:
Once again, the actual operating environment plays a significant role. Many coatings are available that can provide adequate corrosion resistance for wire types that would not themselves resist corrosion. These include powder coating, phosphating with an oil dip or spray, and plating in some cases. Generally speaking, a coated spring produced from a traditional spring material will involve less cost than producing a spring from stainless steel. When the application is such that coated spring wire will not meet the requirements of the application, the focus turns to stainless steel wire. Type 302 stainless steel is generally the first choice. This wire can yield very corrosion-resistant springs for most environments. When the application calls for high operating temperatures as well, 17-7 PH wire will also likely be considered.


From the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) Manual on Design and Application of Helical and Spiral Springs, SAE HS-795 :

Shot Peening— This surface treatment has done more to increase the life of springs than any alloy steel or other process ever employed.

Relaxation or Load Loss in Helical Springs at Elevated Temperatures
If a helical spring is compressed by a given amount between parallel plates at elevated temperature, it will be found that the load exerted by the spring will gradually relax or drop off with time. The amount of this relaxation, or set, generally increases as the stress and/or temperature increases. Normally, the set is greater for long periods of time than for short ones.

Common Causes of Spring Failure:
1. Surface Imperfections
2. Corrosion--Corrosion is the major environmental factor which will promote spring breakage. It destroys and removes metal from the surface of the spring by chemical or electrochemical methods in an irregular fashion which causes an overall reduction in the spring stock size, compounded by localized areas of intensive metal removal. These effects seriously reduce both the static strength and the fatigue strength of the spring.
3. Improper Heat Treatment

[rmecapn]

I asked Wolf this same question and they say its neither and is a proprietary spring metal made by Keibler Elves in a secret tree on the planet Mongo.

Well, those Keibler Elves do a good job then!


I replaced all the springs in my aluminum mags with Wolff about 2 years ago 'cause Wolff was supposed to be the top end mag spring. Over the last 6 months I've slowly (as I can afford it) been replacing my floor plates with Ranger Plates. Not one spring has shown any signs of rust and I live in a fairly humid environment. Kudos to the elves!

[Heavy Metal]

I put a couple of drops of oil on a bore patch and wipe my mag springs. I have never had a problem and I only do this when I break my mags down for cleaning which is rare unless they took a dive into the dirt.

[Heavy Metal]

Having extraction issues (that often show up as double feeds)? Your extractor spring and insert most likely need to be changed out.

Dropped Extraction! Not double feed!


PS Grant, did you get my email!

[Shihan]

I tried to order some ISMI AR springs awhile back and ISMI told me that most of them were a limited run for another company. Grant do you have any instock or knoe were to get some?
Thanks