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Thread: Ill tell you why people want natl health care...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Disagree.

    What is the incentive to stay healthy, when people at least have the perception that there are no repurcussions for their bad choices? now if you want to charge the fatbodies more for their insurance I'm ok with that. Or adopt a model like car insurance where rates increase as "accidents" (or in this case, visits) increase but with discounts for preventative care, then I'm ok with that.

    Making people pay their own way makes them responsible for their own destiny. Whether it's insurance companies or the government, the core concept is socialist in nature in that I pay for other people's bad decisions.

    I think you need to read up on what insurance is.

    You are griping about the current system, which is not insurance, even though it is called that. The current system IS a socialistic forced transfer of wealth.

    I explicitly said (in other terms) that the problem was that the current system has been corrupted by government meddling so that it is more a maintenance plan and not an insurance plan.

    Insurance is used to cover the unexpected and very expensive oyt of the ordinary occurrence. There should not be any such thing as a "co-pay" and most doctor's appointments should be fee for service that you take care of yourself. The unexpected expensive disaster type thing is what you insure against. Things like huge accidents, cancer, etc.

    We don't expect car insurance to pay for oil changes, new tires, etc. Why do we expect "health insurance" to pay for the analogs?
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    There is nothing here to buy, Rob. We see early coronary disease in patients age 18; in fact, we have seen it in these age groups in Western societies for at least 40 years, when rates of obesity were half of what they are now. If one is fat since childhood, by the time he/she is 18, they are already behind the curve - blood pressure, lipids, etc. Then you're 18, you have no money, you need to go through college and juggle a job on the side, then you need to work your ass off to get a reasonable permanent job. Reality checks in and it is not pretty. I see these people in my office nearly on daily basis and while some of them have made their own poor choices, many have been dealt a bad card from a get-go.

    And? So what. Why is it MY problem to pay for this. It exists. But the solution is not socialized spreading of the pain to those who take better care of themselves and their families.

    Things like food stamps and similar programs exacerbate this sort of health issue as well. The crap that people on welfare eats leads to this sort of problem. While I see fat people (me included) in every economic class, almost all the people I see buying crap with their EBT cards / foodstamps and similar programs are obese. Non scientific survey etc. disclaimer.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    There is nothing here to buy, Rob. We see early coronary disease in patients age 18; in fact, we have seen it in these age groups in Western societies for at least 40 years, when rates of obesity were half of what they are now. If one is fat since childhood, by the time he/she is 18, they are already behind the curve - blood pressure, lipids, etc. Then you're 18, you have no money, you need to go through college and juggle a job on the side, then you need to work your ass off to get a reasonable permanent job. Reality checks in and it is not pretty. I see these people in my office nearly on daily basis and while some of them have made their own poor choices, many have been dealt a bad card from a get-go.
    So what do you think is going to fix any of that? Govt. forcing people to be healthy? Govt. incentives to be healthy? No.

    Natural Selection? Yes.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadbag View Post
    I think you need to read up on what insurance is.

    You are griping about the current system, which is not insurance, even though it is called that. The current system IS a socialistic forced transfer of wealth.

    I explicitly said (in other terms) that the problem was that the current system has been corrupted by government meddling so that it is more a maintenance plan and not an insurance plan.

    Insurance is used to cover the unexpected and very expensive oyt of the ordinary occurrence. There should not be any such thing as a "co-pay" and most doctor's appointments should be fee for service that you take care of yourself. The unexpected expensive disaster type thing is what you insure against. Things like huge accidents, cancer, etc.

    We don't expect car insurance to pay for oil changes, new tires, etc. Why do we expect "health insurance" to pay for the analogs?
    So why have it at all? Save your money and deal with the "unexpected". What so many people find "unexpected" typically a blind man could have seen coming like a train down... well whatever avenue they say you can see a train coming down.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    So why have it at all? Save your money and deal with the "unexpected". What so many people find "unexpected" typically a blind man could have seen coming like a train down... well whatever avenue they say you can see a train coming down.
    Because people should be free to pool their resources against the unexpected.

    There is no societal danger in real honest to goodness insurance that is not meddled in by the government.

    Do you want to get rid of car insurance, home owners insurance, etc. too?
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  6. #56
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    My grandfather was a physician from the 1930's until the 1960's in a major city. There were no bodies stacked like cord-wood in front of the Catholic hospital, and I don't think he ever had a tax rate of less than 80% either. Physicians have historically been more than willing to help out the less fortunate in their community, it's good business. I realize we're a whole lot better at doing last minute patch jobs on smoking/drinking/eating cases that would have been a "you've got a few months to live" back in the day. Physicians would of course also tell people who survived strokes and heart attacks that they could have any number of better years by changing their lifestyle. Again, we also have expensive patch job medications these days for people who won't put down the tobacco, ho-ho's and booze, all with varying degrees of horrid side effects. Healthy living still has no negative side effects.

    Because we heap healthcare on those that do not deserve it, we end up-charging unfortunate regular people who by and large couldn't prevent their accident or illness. I've seen hospitals rape enough working people for unpreventable medical conditions that it makes me want to do a whole lot more than "watch" people who abuse themselves and expect others to foot the bill "wither away".
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Natural Selection? Yes.
    Rob, I highly doubt that mankind in 21 century will accept a wolf pack's approach to life. In fact, this particular society (US) is leading the world in absolutely opposite direction, which is called rescue health care. We, Americans, spare no expenses on saving human life if that life has a face that one can look at or a name to call it by - whether it is a sick patient, a soldier lost behind enemy lines, miners trapped in mine (remember how we lost 6, and then lost 3 more in attempt to save first 6?), or child fallen into a well. Trauma, ICUs, cardiac cath labs on every corner, neonatology, easy dialysis access, experimental cancer treatments. Rescue care is a huge contributor to health care cost, and we're are the unanimous world leaders.
    I am not passing judgment whether this is right or wrong. I am simply stating the fact that this is what current American society wants and demands, and I don't see how this would change much, let alone 180 degrees towards natural selection.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by montanadave View Post
    An associate was in a staff meeting with the physician who had been hired to spearhead the formation of a new comprehensive cancer center at a local hospital (a "nonprofit," no less) when he inadvertently referred to their future patients as "market share."

    Kind of says it all.
    That he considers patients customers?

    I wonder what government bureaucrats will call us? Cost burdens?

  9. #59
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    The bolsheviks refer to us as "tax paying units", quite a step below either human cargo, human capital, or market share, all which acknowledge either your humanity or your potential to do something without coercion. We are the great big ATM machine between their super rich welfare rat buddies and their book-value "poor" welfare rat buddies. The enemies of all humanity, fully subsidized by our tax dollars.
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by montanadave View Post
    An associate was in a staff meeting with the physician who had been hired to spearhead the formation of a new comprehensive cancer center at a local hospital (a "nonprofit," no less) when he inadvertently referred to their future patients as "market share."
    Why is this a problem? Health care is a market. Doctors and specialists exchange their services for money, the same way we all do.

    The problem is, not enough people understand and look at it that way.

    Looking at future patients as "market share" in a staff meeting in no way means that the care would be less for those patients.
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