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Thread: Name this handguard+rail system

  1. #31
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    If you're going to drill holes in a composite material, you need to take it to a shop that's certified in composites work and have them do it. Beyond the health hazards (which are VERY real... you need to have the proper PPE), composites don't always respond like metals when you start drilling into them without the proper tooling.

    Of course, I'm sure you'll ignore this just like you've ignored everybody else in this thread... this entire thread is WECSOG to the core, as IG mentioned earlier.

  2. #32
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    I get the part about wanting to have a lightweight rifle while hiking. For a number of years I carried a M1 but the last couple of years I have been carrying one of my ARs. Most of my ARs are in the 8.5 pound range which is not bad(with an optic and light verse just irons on the M1) but I do plan on getting a 14.5” LW BCM carbine to use as my hiking rifle. It’s going to be lighter than my other ARs but I will be giving up nothing as far as reliability and durability.

    The thing to keep in mind, is under what conditions have the Clarks (the same goes for the polymer lower) held up well? Range use, safe queen, game gun, duty rifle or training rifle? If the ounces are really that important you can cut that weight from the rest of your equipment. Going with a lighter pack stove, boots, weapon light, optic, or a number of other items. Keep in mind the rifle is on your shoulder to save your ass.

    Back to the carbon fiber, while it is strong, it does break and when it does it's toast. And sometimes the impacts that it takes to do so are not all that great. What would be the end result if you were traversing some difficult terrain and slipped and fell with the hand guard landing on something solid? That could make the hand guard almost unsafe to use if at all. With you using this primarily in the mountains this not out of the question.

    Good choice on going with the LW barrel. I think there are some reviews on here on USGG. Here is a link with some good weight info:
    http://vuurwapenblog.com/calc.html

  3. #33
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    OP,

    Is there any reason why you couldn't get a BCM or similar LW upper and use a Magpul MOE handguard? Do you need rails and a tube?

    I personally think you should buy whatever you want because I don't think you really want to hear what anyone is saying.



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  4. #34
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    If you are looking for a lightweight trail/backpacking rifle, you should really look no farther than the Colt 6520 (if you are okay with iron sights alone) or the Colt 6720 (if you want to mount an optic). Light weight to the point of almost feeling like a toy, but they are Colt and thus the industry standard for quality and not some fucacta home-brew or suspect lesser tier brand.
    Last edited by JoshNC; 08-27-11 at 11:31.

  5. #35
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    Really?

    5 freaking ounces. In the scheme of things its 5 ounces and its going to be quality. Either take the advice and dont be so defensive, or someone close this one down...nothing worse than asking for advise and arguing with people about their suggestions.

  6. #36
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    Yes, 5 Freaking Ounces. 5FO. Not many. 3 more and it's a mere half pound. Not much when ounces = pounds and pounds = pain. Isn't that why you guys carry a 5.56 AR carbine instead of, say, a 7.62x51, is to save weight?

    Perhaps, for your application, saving 5FO is a bit extreme but this isn't your application. It's from the perspective of a backpacker who wants to carry a light rifle instead of a pistol. Most don't like the idea of using a carbon fiber handguard and even less one chosen from a manufacture that doesn't carry the M4Carbine Seal of Approval. Using it won't get him killed. Even if he falls on his rifle and shatters the handguard. Then again, maybe it will. Carbon fiber is pretty tough. I don't know how well made the Clark tube is and I bet no one else does either. It makes no sense to save a few ounces on the barrel only to offset that weight savings using a heavier than needed handguard. What's the worst thing that could happen in this case? The handguard proves to be inadequate for the job and it gets replaced.

    The only good thing about using aluminum for a handguard is that it's strength is adequate for it's weight and it's cost effective. It's thermal conductivity makes it a poor choice.

    Change for the sake of change isn't good. But staying with obsolete technology isn't good either. That's why we're using ARs instead of trapdoor Springfields
    Last edited by MistWolf; 08-27-11 at 19:39.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Carbon fiber handguards don't get glued to the rifle. They get epoxied to the mount that screws down on the barrel nut. Epoxies can be very strong, strong enough to hold together the structure of a Boeing 787.

    Before drilling holes in a carbon fiber handguard, know what you're getting yourself into. The wrong procedure can leave fibers sticking out all over the place and the dust is very irritating to the lungs.

    What's wrong with the VTAC? Same thing with all aluminum handguards- while they do work, it's stone age technology
    You're really making the argument that it's not getting glued to the rifle because it's getting glued to part of the rifle?

    I'm a big fan of composites, and I know that they're quite strong. G10 is the only way I roll when it comes to grips for my 1911. However, aluminum is quite a bit stronger, and it's thermal conductivity is a good thing; the last thing you want is for your handguard to insulate a barrel that's quickly heating up. You hold a VFG or good grip panels comfortably, and the rest of the rail acts as giant heat sink. Heat is a barrel's enemy, in terms of accuracy and longevity.

    If one is making a very, very specific rifle, CF handguards are good for that application. My argument is just that the weight difference between the very specialized, not terribly durable CF handguards and the tough, very versatile VTAC handguards is about the weight of a decent-sized hamburger.
    Last edited by crazymoose; 08-27-11 at 20:16.

  8. #38
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    Yes, I am stating that gluing it to a part that mounts to the rifle isn't gluing it to the rifle. A lens epoxied to a scope body mounted to a rifle isn't glued to the rifle.

    Thermal conductivity is good for a heatsink, not for a part that's supposed to protect body parts from heat (unless it throws off the heat so fast, it's surface temperature doesn't rise much). A VFG and panels do give heat protection, but not everyone likes a VFG. Panels make the handguard bigger in diameter, reduce the ability of the handguard to act as a heatsink and the panels and VFG add to cost and weight. Maybe not much but it's like taking two steps forward and shuffling two steps back. In my opinion, that's not very practical.

    (I am unsure of the insulating properties of carbon fiber. From what I understand, in one application, carbon fiber is used as a jacket to stiffen barrels and conducts heat so quickly that it throws it off before it's surface temperature rises more than a few degrees. It may be a specific type of carbon fiber is being used.)

    And just how "not terribly durable" are these carbon fiber guards? How fragile are they? While mine are PRI, not Clarks, they are pretty tough and rigid. The one downside is the PRI carbon fiber guards in particular, are pricey.

    When does not saving weight have it's diminishing returns? 5 ounces is the difference between 7.5 lbs and almost 8 lbs (7.8 lbs). Then add panels and a VFG. Using that logic, I might as well start carrying my 9 lbs M14
    Last edited by MistWolf; 08-27-11 at 22:03.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  9. #39
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    I'll say this:

    Though they weren't meant to be topics of discussion in this thread:

    As much as I hate the looks and my gut disapproves of LW profile barrels, I have decided to stomach it and thank myself for the weight savings later, as many of you advised.

    On the subject of the CAV-15 lower. I've seen no failures. Show me a failure caused by the lower itself, and I'll reconsider chasing one down.

    Back on topic:

    At the beginning of the thread (or early on) I stated weight was a major factor.

    I stated backpacking was the primary use.

    Some of you came to me suggesting I add weight to my system, because you have yet to hear of the carbon fiber handguard's durability from the powers that be, and the heavier aluminum tube is "proven".

    I want to save weight, guys. I understand that if I want greater durability, I should get the aluminum tube and hump the weight.

    Frankly, I doubt I'll break the carbon fiber tube. This weapon will be carried in a padded HSGI scabbard on the side of my pack for protection (now you'll attack this saying it adds weight, I'm breaking from my philosophy on weight. I have to cover the weapon up to a degree. I'd get looks and visits from the police if I walked around with a rifle in my hands all the time. Therefore, scabbard). I'm operating under the assumption that the HSGI scabbard will offer enough protection for the rifle.

    I know, I have been stubborn in a previous thread on a certain subject on which I shouldn't have been stubborn (LW barrel). I apologize to anyone who I was rude/disrespectful to.

    That's all I got.

    EDIT: those who have defended me on the subject of weight, thank you.
    Last edited by Kfgk14; 08-27-11 at 23:52.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kfgk14 View Post
    On the subject of the CAV-15 lower. I've seen no failures. Show me a failure caused by the lower itself, and I'll reconsider chasing one down.
    You mean like this?


    I know, I have been stubborn in a previous thread on a certain subject on which I shouldn't have been stubborn (LW barrel). I apologize to anyone who I was rude/disrespectful to.
    I think it's crazy for a person who going to go with a carbon fiber tube and a gay polymer lower to complain about the appearance of the barrel. The appearance of the barrel should be the LEAST of your worries.

    This carbine is 5.36 lbs and will meet your needs far better than this POS you're building.


    See more here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39599

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