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Thread: Is there better than "Mil-Spec?"

  1. #21
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    Doesn't the "better than the TDP" of today sometimes become the official, accepted TDP of tomorrow? USG requirements evolve to line up with new manufacture processes, mission needs, etc. Otherwise we'd still be carrying M16A1s... or garands... or cap-and-ball... Is that thought off base? Seems OK to me but I'll be happy to hear otherwise.

    That said, if the TDP gives you something great, I'm personally not interested in much effort to find something that's just a little better than great but has to be defended because no one agrees on why. Knowing the TDP gives you a hard set of standards that are independently enforced by the USG means I don't have to work too hard to know that I'm getting "something great".

    But most of the non-TDP-but-maybe-better-maybe-not companies we're talking about seem to have earned their reps. I used to be a hobbyist 4x4 offroader. I would never get a suspension lift done by a guy in his garage. Once he owns a shop I might think about it but never do it. After he starts a brand that major offroad competition guys are raving about, then I wouldn't as much worry about the standardization and quality anymore.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by djegators View Post
    ...it would appear that at least some of the lower tier ARs have been raising their standards to meet demand.
    I hope this continues. Between rob's chart and the ever growing popularity of the AR, we are in a golden age of AR quality and it just keeps getting better. That's one reason I never warmed up to the civilian legal AK's. The manufacturers are all stuck on legal compliance and quality of US made components is still secondary at least for most manufacturers.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rackham1 View Post
    Doesn't the "better than the TDP" of today sometimes become the official, accepted TDP of tomorrow? USG requirements evolve to line up with new manufacture processes, mission needs, etc. Otherwise we'd still be carrying M16A1s... or garands... or cap-and-ball... Is that thought off base? Seems OK to me but I'll be happy to hear otherwise.

    Typically what is going to drive changes is real world feedback (mission drives weapons and gear) AND .Mil testing of new products. If/when they find something better, they will adopt it.



    C4

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Typically what is going to drive changes is real world feedback (mission drives weapons and gear) AND .Mil testing of new products. If/when they find something better, they will adopt it.



    C4
    You're right of course, I should have reversed my earlier statement... because mission requirements rule, but then the side effect is that any evolution of the standard will take competitive advantage of new processes, materials, technology, etc.

  5. #25
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    Few Questions

    Just a few new guy questions:

    1. Is the TDP what makes colts guns Mil Spec? Are the pretty much one in the same?

    2. If so, and Colt and FN are the only companies with it, then how can Daniel Defense make a 100% mil spec carbine without the TDP?

    Thanks for the help.
    ATTENTION: What you just read may very well contain sarcasm! Judge me accordingly.

  6. #26
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    .

    In my thread titled "Better than Mil-Spec" last year, Grant made a statement that "clicked" a light on in my head...
    Grant said, "...Remember that the TDP is a living document and is always evolving. "

    So, I'm sure there are changes, improvements, etc. that are being used now that will maybe make it into the TDP one day ...if they can prove out in the long run to actually be better and not just some fickled consensus.

    I think we get impatient and don't understand why the .gov can't see the light and understand things like we (I, you, us,...) understand them.
    Plus I think we forget that is the actual purpose of the TDP is to insure that our military has the best most reliable weapons available.

    But maybe it's just me...

    .

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2theXtreme View Post
    Just a few new guy questions:

    1. Is the TDP what makes colts guns Mil Spec? Are the pretty much one in the same?

    2. If so, and Colt and FN are the only companies with it, then how can Daniel Defense make a 100% mil spec carbine without the TDP?

    Thanks for the help.
    This thread will help with some of your questions:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...&highlight=tdp



    C4

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    .

    In my thread titled "Better than Mil-Spec" last year, Grant made a statement that "clicked" a light on in my head...
    Grant said, "...Remember that the TDP is a living document and is always evolving. "

    So, I'm sure there are changes, improvements, etc. that are being used now that will maybe make it into the TDP one day ...if they can prove out in the long run to actually be better and not just some fickled consensus.

    I think we get impatient and don't understand why the .gov can't see the light and understand things like we (I, you, us,...) understand them.
    Plus I think we forget that is the actual purpose of the TDP is to insure that our military has the best most reliable weapons available.

    But maybe it's just me...

    .
    I'm on board with that! The only thing I'd add is that meanwhile, rather than getting impatient while it evolves, the TDP (and rifles built to it) is just fine with me since I can trust it with the least effort on my part.

    Which really just means I'm too lazy to try to proof out (and defend) the non-TDP companies until the guys with much more experience than me are willing to vouch for the maybe-better-than-TDP-maybe-not rifles.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    This thread will help with some of your questions:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...&highlight=tdp



    C4
    Don't know how the hell I missed that sticky but thanks for the link!

    One more question. I don't know how factual it is but I here about certain brands (that aren't Colt or FN) being used by "Special Forces" or what have you. Does that mean these rifles follow the TDP and/or meet that minimal requirement? OR do these "Special Forces" get to choose their weapon regardless of TDP/MilSpec? I can't see the latter being true...

    OR is it all BS and all M4s issued to our Military are Colt or FN?
    ATTENTION: What you just read may very well contain sarcasm! Judge me accordingly.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2theXtreme View Post
    Don't know how the hell I missed that sticky but thanks for the link!

    One more question. I don't know how factual it is but I here about certain brands (that aren't Colt or FN) being used by "Special Forces" or what have you. Does that mean these rifles follow the TDP and/or meet that minimal requirement? OR do these "Special Forces" get to choose their weapon regardless of TDP/MilSpec? I can't see the latter being true...

    OR is it all BS and all M4s issued to our Military are Colt or FN?
    Kind of depends on the claim. The gun store clerk telling you his SF buddy uses a Bushmaster is full of shit. However, things like the DD Mk18 SBR Upper ARE being used, the SPR has parts from various companies, etc...

    I do believe however that all of these special builds start with the same colt lower every other rifle does. Some one smarter than I will have to comment.

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