When to Engage a Threat?

[2theXtreme]

DireWulf very interesting story. I never thought about it like that. I guess you could remove all family and then order the weapon to be dropped. If it is an innocent Dumb Ass then they will likely comply. If compliance is not met and he raises the weapon in a threatening manner then deadly force would surely be justified. Great post. Glad to hear form someone who has BTDT.

[4x4twenty6]

Incorporate body armor drills to your routines folks.
2 to the chest 1 to the head and also practice after inducing some sort of stress. When your adrenaline dumps all kinds of things happen. i.e. tunnel vision, respitory rate increases, heart rate increases and all that influences how well you can put rounds on target.

Any way on to the story.

While working nights in the greater new orleans area me and my buddies i worked with frequented a stop and rob after roll call cuz the guy who worked every night gave us drinks and food for dirt cheap so we kept a constant eye on his business because it was one of few that were open in that area and had been robbed a lot in the past.

I pull up on side of the business and shut my car off and as i am walking in i see 2 guys leaning over the counter and i dont see the clerk (he was bending down because the two guys wanted to see something that was in the glass)

There was a third guy walking around the back of the store with all kinds of shit in his hands.

I walk in and the two guys looking over the counter ****ing froze.
I see the third guy walk up to the front of the store with a bunch of goodies. Immediately after seeing me he changes direction and he begins putting them back.
I yell to YaYa( clerks nickname) and i said hey everything ok and he said yes i was just trying to get something for these guys.

I walk to the back of the store by the other guy and grab a drink as my two buddies walk in. They 3 guys ultimately ended up leaving the store having not purchased anything.

They were in there distracting the clerk to steal a bunch of shit and i walked in right in the middle of it.
I put myself in the best position, at the back of the store cuz i knew my two buddies were about to pull up. I had the rear and third bad guy covered so that he wouldnt get the jump on us if the other two got froggy when my two other buddies walked in.

A persons behavior tells you so much about their intentions so train yourself to identify strange behavior.

[pmarc]

There are countless scenarios but I just like getting others opinions and seeing what their justifications are for their actions. I have already learned a great deal from the responses so far...

Another forumer's father just got out of that iHOP seconds prior to the shooting.

Here it is: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1094155

For me, DireWulf made the most sound points.

However, challenging the guy might just make you his primary target.
Do so from a position of cover.

[5cary]

The minute you saw the AK47 you could have challenged him even with your hand on your weapon and the second he raised his you could have initiated your draw.

Wow. you must have a pretty quick draw...If someone is holding a rifle at the ready there's no way I'm challenging them with a holstered pistol.

The simple act of challenging him implies I believe he may be a threat.

you could have just covered him at muzzle point or engaged him if he got a shot off.

I'm assuming the replies here will differ greatly from the perspective of LE vs. CCW civvy.

Does the usual standard of "articulation of a reasonable person" apply to both? At what point is it unreasonable to consider a man holding an AK-47 inside an IHOP a threat? At that point, whether it's fake or real is meaningless, I would think.

[2theXtreme]

However, challenging the guy might just make you his primary target.
Do so from a position of cover.

From cover of course. Thanks for the link. That is crazy his father was right there. Wow.

[2theXtreme]

Incorporate body armor drills to your routines folks.
2 to the chest 1 to the head and also practice after inducing some sort of stress. When your adrenaline dumps all kinds of things happen. i.e. tunnel vision, respitory rate increases, heart rate increases and all that influences how well you can put rounds on target.

Any way on to the story.

While working nights in the greater new orleans area me and my buddies i worked with frequented a stop and rob after roll call cuz the guy who worked every night gave us drinks and food for dirt cheap so we kept a constant eye on his business because it was one of few that were open in that area and had been robbed a lot in the past.

I pull up on side of the business and shut my car off and as i am walking in i see 2 guys leaning over the counter and i dont see the clerk (he was bending down because the two guys wanted to see something that was in the glass)

There was a third guy walking around the back of the store with all kinds of shit in his hands.

I walk in and the two guys looking over the counter ****ing froze.
I see the third guy walk up to the front of the store with a bunch of goodies. Immediately after seeing me he changes direction and he begins putting them back.
I yell to YaYa( clerks nickname) and i said hey everything ok and he said yes i was just trying to get something for these guys.

I walk to the back of the store by the other guy and grab a drink as my two buddies walk in. They 3 guys ultimately ended up leaving the store having not purchased anything.

They were in there distracting the clerk to steal a bunch of shit and i walked in right in the middle of it.
I put myself in the best position, at the back of the store cuz i knew my two buddies were about to pull up. I had the rear and third bad guy covered so that he wouldnt get the jump on us if the other two got froggy when my two other buddies walked in.

A persons behavior tells you so much about their intentions so train yourself to identify strange behavior.

Interesting and Understood. I find myself playing out scenarios all the time when I am out and about. Trying to figure in multiple shooters...stuck in traffic...large groups of people. ANYTHING I can think of.

Great advice on the body armor drills. Honestly never thought of that or why I always see people doing it. Makes sense now though.

[glocktogo]

What exactly in an IHOP constitutes "cover" from an AK? Concealment perhaps, but cover would be almost nonexistent in a retail environment against an AK. I think a CCW'er needs to be very circumspect when considering engaging an armed unknown contact who hasn't fired a shot, particularly one with a rifle. Best to be a good witness and if a firing solution becomes necessary, use surprise as your best ally.

[4x4twenty6]

Thinking of scenarios is great.
Hell for swat thats what we did, train a lot for the possibility of having to enter a bad situation and continuously act out scenarios and change them.

At home think about what you would do if your home was invaded.
We have had some home invasions in the little rock area and some surrounding citys and being that i am in a new house and new state for that matter i had to adjust my tactics slightly.

[Zell959]

If I'm being really honest with myself and truly considering the stark reality of what it would feel like to hear a gunshot from outside followed by someoning entering a diner where I'm eating with a rifle already shouldered, chances are I would sort of sit in stunned disbelief for at least a few moments, meaning the shooter would almost certainly have gotten some shots off & possible killed someone before I would have the presence of mind to return fire with a concealed weapon.

[rickp]

Wow. you must have a pretty quick draw...If someone is holding a rifle at the ready there's no way I'm challenging them with a holstered pistol.

The simple act of challenging him implies I believe he may be a threat.

Well I made the assumption he had it in one hand hanging by his side, in a non threatening manner, as in he's just carrying it inside, so that's my bad. Otherwise it would challenged him with my weapon out from behind some form of cover if possible. Thanks for pointing that out.