The Armed Citizen And Law Enforcement...

[SteyrAUG]

I'm by no means LEO nor have I been in a confrontation involving lethal force. That said, why pull a gun on someone just to "hold them there"? If you're going to pull a gun on someone, it better be to kill them (legally justified, of course), nothing less. Doing anything else extends the confrontation, ads a crap-ton more liability to you, and can potentially backfire.

If I pull my gun, it's because you've forced me to decide I need to kill you. Anything less and I'm not drawing my gun.

I think the first time I ever "pulled a gun" was when I moved back to FL from Iowa. My gf and I were coming back from the clubs in South Beach around 3 or 4 am. As I was shooting up I95 I noticed a car on the side of the road with a young female standing beside it.

This was in pre cell phone days and my first thought was "My god she won't last 5 minutes out her before she is robbed or raped." I pulled over about 15 feet behind her. My intention was to give her a ride to the next exit where she could call for help. I didn't have a carry permit at the time but I did have a handgun in my vehicle in a holster between the seats.

No sooner than I was outside my car several large black males piled out of her car and ran towards me. I reached into the car and pulled my handgun and the closest one came to a stop about six feet from me.

They had not "yet" become a lethal threat, for all I knew they were running up to me to thank me for stopping to help them. But I strongly believe that I saved my life and that of my gf by pulling a gun.

As none of them had visible weapons, I really wasn't in a position to "kill them all" for the possible threat they posed. But at the same time I didn't wish to wait for them to have hands on me before I dealt with the threat that was brewing.

So I completely disagree with your position. I can think of several examples where one would produce a weapon to address / eliminate a threat but at the same time the threat has not manifested itself enough to become a "shoot now" situation. This is also why police officers don't shoot everyone they draw on.

If you wait until it is time to start shooting people to take steps to protect yourself, you might find you waited too long and it is no longer an option. I've been in enough bad situations to know how fast things can devolve.

[montanadave]

I'm by no means LEO nor have I been in a confrontation involving lethal force. That said, why pull a gun on someone just to "hold them there"? If you're going to pull a gun on someone, it better be to kill them (legally justified, of course), nothing less. Doing anything else extends the confrontation, ads a crap-ton more liability to you, and can potentially backfire.

If I pull my gun, it's because you've forced me to decide I need to kill you. Anything less and I'm not drawing my gun.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

While it's permissible in Montana to make a "citizen's arrest" using reasonable force, that does not extend to deadly force. Folks have held suspects at gunpoint till the law arrived (http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/60428862.html) but it seems like a good way to turn a bad situation into an even worse one real quick.

[pilotguyo540]

I'm by no means LEO nor have I been in a confrontation involving lethal force. That said, why pull a gun on someone just to "hold them there"? If you're going to pull a gun on someone, it better be to kill them (legally justified, of course), nothing less. Doing anything else extends the confrontation, ads a crap-ton more liability to you, and can potentially backfire.

If I pull my gun, it's because you've forced me to decide I need to kill you. Anything less and I'm not drawing my gun.

There are many times where it is justified to draw, but firing is a grey area.

2 perps break into your house, one is mid 20's, veteran of the trade so to speak. With him is his apprentice, 14 year old kid looking for a little trouble. If the kid is cooperative, could you dispatch him on the spot? Moral choice for sure. AMIS class went into a ton of detail on this scenario. Either choice you make can really ruin your weekend.

[montanadave]

As none of them had visible weapons, I really wasn't in a position to "kill them all" for the possible threat they posed. But at the same time I didn't wish to wait for them to have hands on me before I dealt with the threat that was brewing.

So I completely disagree with your position. I can think of several examples where one would produce a weapon to address / eliminate a threat but at the same time the threat has not manifested itself enough to become a "shoot now" situation. This is also why police officers don't shoot everyone they draw on.

If you wait until it is time to start shooting people to take steps to protect yourself, you might find you waited too long and it is no longer an option. I've been in enough bad situations to know how fast things can devolve.

And, son of a bitch, I can't dispute the logic of this argument, either.

The difference for me is pulling a concealed weapon to "detain" someone I think has committed a crime and pulling a concealed weapon to stop what I believe is an imminent threat to my life or the life of someone else.

So where it gets sticky is if the threat stops before I have to shoot. Then what? At what magic moment does the guy that half a second before had me in fear for my life become a non-threat? How threatened am I if he moves back towards a vehicle where he may or may not have a weapon?

I watched my neighbor ignore a police officer and walk back into his house when asked to stay put and the officer definitely felt threatened because things got real tense real fast. But I'm not a police officer and, while I might feel justified making a citizen's arrest, the person I felt threatened by is certainly justified in ignoring me and getting back in his car.

And if it's this complicated trying to puzzle it out sitting on the couch watching a ball game, how tough is it when you're scared shitless in the dark on the side of the road with everything happening at once?

[SteyrAUG]

The difference for me is pulling a concealed weapon to "detain" someone I think has committed a crime and pulling a concealed weapon to stop what I believe is an imminent threat to my life or the life of someone else.

Yeah, I just don't see me betting the marbles to catch somebody that might be a criminal. If it's not me, my property or somebody else being in imminent danger, I will call the cops and let them chase bad guys. Having done it more than a few times I can tell you that I don't particularly enjoy pulling guns.

[SteyrAUG]

So where it gets sticky is if the threat stops before I have to shoot. Then what? At what magic moment does the guy that half a second before had me in fear for my life become a non-threat? How threatened am I if he moves back towards a vehicle where he may or may not have a weapon?

For me it was when they stopped in their tracks. Had they continued at me I "hope" I would have fired. Thankfully it didn't come to that. After standing there for a bit, I said "Ok, you guys are getting back in your car, I'm getting in mine and we are leaving." And they did. Not all bad guys are quite as cooperative.

There is the famous AC556 story about the HK employee who had a couple guys that simply weren't afraid of being shot at all.

[tsconver]

I am pretty sure on NC that you can be charged with kidnapping if you try to detain someone at gunpoint. Like others said at least in NC you can only draw in self defense not to detain or apprehend someone.

[Sensei]

I think the first time I ever "pulled a gun" was when I moved back to FL from Iowa. My gf and I were coming back from the clubs in South Beach around 3 or 4 am. As I was shooting up I95 I noticed a car on the side of the road with a young female standing beside it...

The first time you pulled gun on someone? Do you realize how rare this event should be if you are not a LEO?

I've been a victim of 2 violent crimes where I was able to escape serious injury and expensive legal fees by taking the coward's path (i.e. running) instead of using my weapon. In fact, I've carried concealed for 15 years and I've never seen a reason to draw my weapon on someone - and I've lived/worked in some pretty ghetto places. That is because I train to only use my weapon to defend my life, and I've already committed to shooting someone before my hand reaches the 4 o'clock on my waistband. There is really nothing that the target is going to do to stop this action in the 0.8 seconds it takes to clear my holster. If someone sees my gun outside of the training environment, the next thing going through their mind is a bullet.

Having said that, I'm very careful of the situations that I wander into. I would never fathom stopping my car on the side of I95 to help a stranded damsel - especially if my GF or wife was in the car. Sure, I'd stop at the next exit and call the HP, but I'm not risking my family's livelihood to be a good Samaritan when there is no imminent threat of harm. You say that you saved your GF's life with your actions, but I'd argue that you put her life in danger in the first place. Imagine if they called your hand with their own guns and won - I bet she would have a night to remember with those guys. Then again, I've never driven home from a club at 3 or 4 in the AM.

The point that I'm trying to make is that carrying concealed often amplifies a person's innate tendencies toward risk. Some of us become more conservative with our risks, while others more accepting of risks. A good question to ask yourself is, "Would I be doing this action if I were not carrying?" If you find yourself taking on more more risk because you have a gun, this might explain why you find yourself holding people at gunpoint a lot more often then the average CCW holder.

[SteyrAUG]

double

[SteyrAUG]

The first time you pulled gun on someone? Do you realize how rare this event should be if you are not a LEO?

I seem to be a rare exception to that rule. I once lived in a really bad neighborhood and ended up having problems with local drug dealers and gang member types because I wouldn't accept them dealing drugs on my front lawn (literally) and I cooperated with police regularly. As a consequence I have more "gun drawn" instances than most cops I know and I have an occupation where 80% of my customers are LEOs.

But quite honestly, a great many circumstances found me. In that first instance the only way I could have avoided a "gun drawn" situation would have been to not stop at all. And I'm just not the kind of person to leave some chick on the side of the road late at night.

Having learned what I did, I am of course much more wary when I consider helping people, but as a general rule I still help people who look like they might be headed for a lot of trouble if I can. My options once I decided to stop were to draw a gun and protect myself and my gf or not draw a gun. I think I made the right decision.

That a person may be forced to make such decisions more frequently than the norm does not mean they are making the wrong decisions. Sometimes shit just happens more than it should.

Having said that, I'm very careful of the situations that I wander into. I would never fathom stopping my car on the side of I95 to help a stranded damsel - especially if my GF or wife was in the car. Sure, I'd stop at the next exit and call the HP, but I'm not risking my family's livelihood to be a good Samaritan when there is no imminent threat of harm. You say that you saved your GF's life with your actions, but I'd argue that you put her life in danger in the first place. Imagine if they called your hand with their own guns and won - I bet she would have a night to remember with those guys. Then again, I've never driven home from a club at 3 or 4 in the AM.

Well I had just returned from Iowa and we tend to help everyone. Sometimes being nice has a cost, only good people would have fallen for the trap I did. Yeah, I could have kept driving and made a call from the next exit, but what if I found out she got killed and I could have done something. We all make our decisions.

And while I'm sure many will chide me for not being "tactically protective" enough, I try not to live my life afraid of the world. I go out in it, I do and say what I think is correct. And because I know there are bad people out there I take a gun with me. And if those bad people don't try and attack me or my loved ones or screw with my property, I would never have to pull a gun. Sadly that isn't the world we live in.

The point that I'm trying to make is that carrying concealed often amplifies a person's innate tendencies toward risk. Some of us become more conservative with our risks, while others more accepting of risks. A good question to ask yourself is, "Would I be doing this action if I were not carrying?" If you find yourself taking on more more risk because you have a gun, this might explain why you find yourself holding people at gunpoint a lot more often then the average CCW holder.

I probably would have done the same thing if I didn't take a gun. I honestly didn't even consider that I might be in danger by stopping to help. I never even dreamed I was being set up. So it's a good thing I had a gun, because otherwise I might not be around to tell what happened. I do find being armed makes me avoid a lot of small scale conflicts where I might otherwise tell and asshole he is an asshole.