Proper way to train w/laser grips?

[LMT42]

I recently purchased CT grips for my 442 and finally got to the range last weekend. I noticed that my eyes were drawn to the laser and I tended to use it as a crutch. I shot MUCH better with the laser turned off, as my attention was fully focused on my sights and trigger pull.

My first impression is that I'd be better off without the laser grips, but thought I'd request some feedback before I get rid of them. Is there a proper mindset or training regimen to use with lasers? Should I become more proficient with the jframe before using the laser?

I'm not trying to start any arguments here, as I know there are differing opinions on lasers. What works well for one individual doesn't work at all for another. I'm just wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or if I'm the type that shouldn't use one. I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment.

[PdxMotoxer]

If you bought new did your Crimson Trace Laser come with the free LASER TACTICS DVD?

If not just mail Crimson Trace and they will send you one.
Also if you notice artifacts around the beam it's time to clean it.
(and q-tips won't cut it.. use felt tipped swab)

as for training i'm not going to say anything because there are so many "pro's" here with REAL training advice for you.

my seller was pulling my (cleared) weapon quickly and pointing it across the room at a light switch, wall plug (without looking down the sights)
then after you THINK your on the wall plug or picture, activate your laser and that is where you would have shot.

How close were you? (in the dark without night sights that's where your round would have gone)

[Pork Chop]

I find it useful for dry fire practice and mechanics. When I was teaching my wife and son it was a great aid in teaching them how trigger pull can affect poi.

That being said, I don't practice with it much to avoid the dependance you mentioned. I check it's zero & shoot 2 or 3 mags with it each trip to the range to maintain my confidence it, but I avoid using it otherwise.

[Sgt_Gold]

Using a laser is the exact opposite of using iron sights. With the laser you focus on the target, not on your front sight. It's possible you are having trouble holding the gun still while pulling the trigger because you can't see if the front sight moving. I'd try more live fire and see ifyour shooting improves before I'd ditch the laser.

[B Cart]

I had a CT laser on my sig P229 for three years, and took multiple classes including low light drills, so I have had a little experience with a laser. I think lasers can be very beneficial in low light situations, however after a couple of advanced pistol classes, I decided to take mine off. I shot really well with the laser, and it rocked at bowling pin shoots, but I found that in training I wasn’t using it hardly at all. The more I trained, I found that I was more inclined to use my iron sights in any type of stress situation, than try and find the laser dot (except in low light). I just started to feel like a would be better served by training exclusively with iron sights, so I took mine off. Aside from that, I really liked the laser and I don’t think it’s a bad decision if you decide to keep it.

To answer your question about shooting well with it, you should be more accurate with it once you get used to it. When using a laser, you will find that it moves around on target more than you would think. I am no professional, but try practicing squeezing the trigger once the dot arrives at the spot you want to hit. You don’t necessarily have to hold it perfectly still on the exact spot before you pull the trigger. You will get used to it moving, and then you will learn to pull the trigger as the dot arrives on target. I saw a lot of people try to hold the dot “perfectly still” before they would pull the trigger, and then they would get frustrated because it was moving around a lot. Get used to it moving and use the movement to your benefit. Other than that, just make sure you are practicing proper grip and trigger control.
If you decide to keep it, be proficient with both the laser and irons so it’s not a crutch. I used to shoot irons 75% of the time and laser %25%. I think you can have the benefit of the laser for low light, without totally depending on it all the time.

Again, I am no pro, but I hope that helps a little.

[PD Sgt.]

I too feel they can be of benefit in some low light situations, but I only have CTs on one of my pistols (and not my work pistol).

The biggest problem I see when people use lasers, especially at first, is they no longer try to properly control the pistol, they try to control the laser. Even experienced shooters with good gunhandling skills will look at the dot and try to keep it as still as possible, even during the recoil phase. This results (in my experience) in a lot of low hits as the shooter was pushing down just ahead of the shot in an attempt to control the recoil "bounce". The trick (again, for me) is to let the pistol do what it normally does, and not to try to exert a greater amount of force than usual to try to mitigate what you see at the aiming dot. If you have good fundamentals the pistol should return fairly quickly to pretty close to where it was before. Then you can use the laser to aim the next shot, and so on. This takes a bit of practice at first, but once it "clicks" it is impressive to see how fast and accurately shots can be placed.

I think lasers can be a good tool to show new shooters how certain fundamentals like grip or trigger pull can influence where rounds hit. I think to use them on a working/fighting/defensive gun you should have a solid foundation shooting without them, and a good understanding of their effect on your shooting and in what situations they can optimize performance. Hope this helps.

[LMT42]

Solid advice from everyone, especially this;

The biggest problem I see when people use lasers, especially at first, is they no longer try to properly control the pistol, they try to control the laser. Even experienced shooters with good gunhandling skills will look at the dot and try to keep it as still as possible, even during the recoil phase. This results (in my experience) in a lot of low hits as the shooter was pushing down just ahead of the shot in an attempt to control the recoil "bounce".

My trigger control seemed to go to shit with the laser on and I was pulling shots low and left. I'll try practicing with four spent rounds, and one live one, to smooth this out. I can see how a laser could be very beneficial in a low light situation and don't want to get rid of it. I've just got to correct my mentality and quit concentrating on the laser so much.

Thanks again for all the good advice.

[leokartxiv]

I agree with Pork Chop. It is definately an excellent tool to use for dry firing and to teach novice shooters about trigger control and how it can affect shot placement.

[In2Deep]

Practice with the fundamentals of sight alignment, sight picture, trigger manipulation, and follow through.

The laser is a tool to augment your basics, and not replace them. Using a laser on a pistol fills a narrow void in sighting options.

Just my .02 cents, and your mileage may vary on this.

[viperashes]

Another consideration that needs to be made with lasers, depending on what kind you are using, is laser alignment. Most shooters that I know that use lasers want to sight in their laser to point of iron sight aim. The thing to consider is distance.

Lasers like Crimson Trace grips put the laser just about level with the muzzle of the weapon, but it is offset to the right by around half an inch. What this means is that with a laser "zeroed" at 7 yards, at 25 yards elevation is going to be slightly off, but "windage" of the laser is going to be a lot farther off to the left of that which it would be at 7 yards. So at 7 yards, POA with the laser is pretty close to where POI will be. At 25 yards you are going to be shooting low and to the right.

Undermounted lasers, such as the TLR-2 light/laser are the exact opposite. Windage adjustment doesn't change a whole lot, but elevation changes a lot more with distance if you zero the laser the same way. With a 7 yard "zero" you will be shooting low at 25 yards if you are using the laser as point of aim.

Now for the curveball; Most of us that shoot handguns know the difference between POI sights and 6 o'clock hold sights (I'm typing this fast and probably not using the correct terminology, but the basic principle is there). The same thing can be done with a laser. If you know how far the laser aperature is off of the bore axis, you can zero the laser for a "true zero" rather than a POI zero at a specific range. For example, with me, my TLR-2 is mounted under my Glock 19. The laser is roughly an inch and a quarter below the bore, so when I zeroed my laser, I zeroed below my POI (there was no bench rest shooting or any precision involved in this, it was "professional tactical eyeballed measuring", real accurate stuff )