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[Ironman8]

I'm trying to tell you that a scale judging capitalism from 0-10 is flawed. The worst offenders(certainly like Cuba) definitely have private control of capital. It all happens to be controlled by Castro's cronies, but we see capitalism at play. If in a foreign country I buy a case of Cohiba cigars do we believe that every penny is put into some BS fund and is distributed to all Cubans? Stepping back in time we saw the same thing in the USSR.

There is no truly socialist mecca where everything that comes from "the people" returns to them. Someone is always making money. The differences in our systems of government determine whether that can be anyone with a good idea, or only friends of the powerful. We're drifting further and further towards the latter.

I see you are only arguing little sections of what I wrote...the scale? Really? That's what you chose to argue about? That was totally hypothetical with no statistical data to make it accurate...it was only to make a point, and you chose to base your argument on that? How about arguing real facts such as the definitions of each system and what I have been told about the living conditions of my family members who were there and the ones that still are.

Maybe for the Castro's and the select few in power, you might call it capitalism....capitalization of power and wealth relative to the people. But to the people, how can there be capitalism when you are rationed how many eggs, how much milk, and how much bread you will get per week? There is NO true privitization or wealth there.

Sorry, you can call it what you want, but that whole "system" is sociaism. You can call a turd a chocolate bar all you want, but it will never smell or taste like one.

[CarlosDJackal]

Apparently you didn't have a portfolio with a significant amt. of money in it prior to 2007. As a Finance major from AU(not a big deal I know), American's have so much cause to hate Wall Street for playing so fast and loose w/ their hard earned money that in many cases had been accrued over multiple generations.

So if you didn't have anything stolen from you, it's hard to really be mad.

Politicians have an equal part in this as well, but this thread is for shitting on wall street and the traders who turned it into a game of speculation.

More than a decade ago a former co-worker of mine, who happened to be a licensed Stockbroker, gave me some of the best advice that has saved me from going poor. He told me that if I were to participate in the stock market or any other similar investment (ie: 401k, IRA, etc.) I should do so with the thought that the money I do invest has been lost from the get-go.

Anyone who put ALL of their life's savings in to such investments before the bubble burst is an idiot. I keep hearing about couples who lost millions of dollars because they put everything they had in the stock market. And whether anyone likes it or not, these individuals were doing so for no other reasons than pure greed (which is not bad because it is just like just like everyone else). The reality is they wanted to take the millions that they had and increase it. Boo-freaking-hoo, pardon me while I play the world's smallest violin.

If I had a millions dollars in my savings, I would be a moron to invest all of it. I really don't have the right to complain if my gamble (and that is what it is) did not pay off as I wanted to. It's akin to taking it to Vegas and loosing it all as the Casinos. I can't blame the casinos for my losses (unless they illegally rigged the games, of course). But even if they did rig the games, I can only blame myself for turning my cash into gambling chips in the first place.

Anyone dumb enough to give everything they had to the likes of bernie madoff should take a serious look at how greedy that man in the mirror is. Yes, he was a scumbag for doing what he did and IMHO should be thrown into general population of the highest-security prison we have just so he can live the rest of his life as Bubba's bitch. But he did not put a gun to anyone's head and force them to invest.

So when I hear that some couple had to sell of their yachts, their limos, their race horses, most of their antique car collections, and their 70 million dollar mansion because the bottom fell out from under them; forgive me if I do not shed a tear. I'm just a working stiff who is trying to amass my own wealth the old-fashioned way: through hard work.

The only difference between investing and visiting a Casino are the odds. In both cases you can come out well ahead or flat broke. JM2CW.

[thopkins22]

I see you are only arguing little sections of what I wrote...the scale? Really? That's what you chose to argue about? That was totally hypothetical with no statistical data to make it accurate...it was only to make a point, and you chose to base your argument on that? How about arguing real facts such as the definitions of each system and what I have been told about the living conditions of my family members who were there and the ones that still are.

Maybe for the Castro's and the select few in power, you might call it capitalism....capitalization of power and wealth relative to the people. But to the people, how can there be capitalism when you are rationed how many eggs, how much milk, and how much bread you will get per week? There is NO true privitization or wealth there.

Sorry, you can call it what you want, but that whole "system" is sociaism. You can call a turd a chocolate bar all you want, but it will never smell or taste like one.

I think you're misinterpreting my posts...I don't disagree that it's socialism, nor do I disagree that the living conditions it has created are appalling. Free market capitalism is a key element of why some countries are far more prosperous and have a much higher average standard of living and the lack thereof is a key element of why some countries are lacking. Capitalism exists there, the same as it does everywhere...free market capitalism nor laissez faire capitalism does not. It's an important distinction, considering the subject matter of the thread and that the protesters are also failing to make that connection. It's all about who and how gets to participate in the marketplace.

You ought not be upset about my focus on one small part of your post, because from the get go your focus has been on one small part of mine. Socialism exists, and more often than not it's consequences are horrific. But even in some hardcore remote hippie commune, capitalism is a distinct part of human nature that can't be disappeared. It's how it is allowed to manifest itself that makes the difference.

In Cuba's case, you are absolutely correct that the people as a whole have not been allowed to participate in the market place nor benefit from it, but as I said before my post was in response to DeltaSierra saying that both socialism and capitalism steal from the people and that another system should be developed.

I know from prior topics and posts that we agree on many if not most things...this is a relatively minor thing that I simply believe is important to understanding the reasons that socialism fails. Even if it worked I would not be in favor of it as I prefer freedom, but none of the ideology ever even pans out as far as their desire to do away with capitalism.

[Irish]

[VooDoo6Actual]

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[VooDoo6Actual]

redacted.

[Crow Hunter]

Yes they do. Try not paying your taxes and see what happens.

Taxes (especially income tax) are outright theft. The problem that we have now is that we do not live in a free market, capitalist society. We live in a society in which idiots vote in power hungry retards that steal from hard working people to fund things like the bailouts, cash for clunkers, and all other government programs. If we didn't allow this, we wouldn't have all the problems we have now.

If governments quit backing banks, they would either have to quit gambling so much with their money or they would go out of business and be replaced by banks that don't do stupid things with their money. A bank should be no different than any other business; sometimes they fail and it is the customers job to do their research and put their money in the right establishment. There should never be any guarantee that the bank won't fail and lose all its money (unless someone opens one up that does nothing but sit on the money) because sometimes, no matter how small the risk is, bad things happen. If you don't like that then start storing your money under your mattress.

Everyone who complains about how they lost money that the invested needs to come back down to reality. If you invest in something, there is at least a small chance that it will fail and you will lose all of that money. When that happens it isn't anyone stealing from you, it is business as usual (except the rare cases in which theft is actually occurring through a breach of contract which is an entirely different subject). I seriously doubt that anyone here or anywhere else for that matter had a contract with the people that they invested with that said "We guarantee that you will make money and that you will never lose a dime on this investment."

Wake up and start attacking the actual source of all of our problems. It isn't big business, it is big government.

AMEN. Preach on brother!

[Belmont31R]

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

Saved for my response.

[Belmont31R]

Saved for my response.

1. Trade tariffs worked really well in the late 20's, and into the 30's.


Minimum wage of 20/HR would raise the cost of a combo meal at a fast food place to 15-20 dollars, and they would go out of business within 6 months.


2. Most doctors and hospitals do not get the money from providing services because they are forced to treat anyone who walks in the door, and then pass the buck to those with insurance or other people without insurance, so they too, get charged exorbitant rates. Everybody gets charged exorbitant rates because they only expect a certain percentage of patients to actually pay. Government regulation = increased costs instead of pay as you go or charity.

3. If homeless bums can turn themselves around to become millionaires no one deserves jack shit, and its all about personal drive. Even someone born into wealth can ruin it. What you are born into is not a guarantee of a future either poor or rich. Lots of people inherit wealth and are broke within a few years.

4. No. This further dimishes the employer/employee relationship. As more people are going to college....college becomes the new HS diploma and further lessens wages as the bar is dropped. If everyone went to college a PHD would be treated how a BS is now. The more people who go to college the more businesses expect employees to go to school for 4 years to go make 15/hr.

5. Unless alternative fuels are market based no one will be able to afford the standard of living we have now. The only way electric/hyrbid vehicles are competitive now is because they come with huge tax breaks and incentives from the gov. No one is going to pay 35-40k for a hybrid when a gasoline only car that gets about the same MPG can be had under 20k from most major brands.

When it comes to major sources of power for things like running cities and homes converting to "green" sources right now would leave most homes powerless and heatless. These technologies are simply not viable enough to replace current methods to heat/cool/power millions of homes.


6. 1 Trillion from where? The chinese? New tax that would further cripple the economy?


7. Another trillion from where? Decommision nuclear plants, and power homes with what? Americans could not afford to, en masse, switch to solar or other such methods.


8. Already done, and then some.


9. Then good luck getting the tax revenue to fund this communist wonderland. I mean Id just become a dude floating around and not have to be accountable for anything.


10. Ask Harry Reid why they had SEIU technicians on his last election running the voting machines, and why he came out 5 percent ahead of every major polling entity. Maybe we can get a valid government ID not issued to illegals to vote?


11. Would crash the economy and revert us back to the stone age. Going for the big bucks here!


12. Since they have proven to not be about credit but a scam Americans out of money they either need to be completely restructured or done away with if they won't stick to "Credit" only contracts.

13. Then allow the host company to fire every employee who votes for a union or if a union is voted in they can fire every worker they have if needed, and hire other non union workers. Fed gov will have no role other than contract law enforcement if a company so chooses to have a union work force. Also unions cannot extend over state lines.

[ForTehNguyen]

Apparently you didn't have a portfolio with a significant amt. of money in it prior to 2007. As a Finance major from AU(not a big deal I know), American's have so much cause to hate Wall Street for playing so fast and loose w/ their hard earned money that in many cases had been accrued over multiple generations.

wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for govt/fed reserve retarded policies that caused the bubbles. People like to blame those who got drunk on the bubble, but they never think about who was the one passing out all the alcohol.