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Thread: After 20 years, this is what I know about ARs... (Revision 1.2 on Page 10)

  1. #101
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    Greg Bell: 11. ... NEVER SIT AT A BENCH. Not even to zero.
    Greg, you lost me on this one. While I agree that we should avoid the temptation to shoot too often from the bench, zeroing is the one time it makes sense. The most basic thing I need to know about practical accuracy is whether my bad shots are because of my shooting or because of my firearm. A supported position allows me to know this.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwalker View Post
    Greg, you lost me on this one. While I agree that we should avoid the temptation to shoot too often from the bench, zeroing is the one time it makes sense. The most basic thing I need to know about practical accuracy is whether my bad shots are because of my shooting or because of my firearm. A supported position allows me to know this.
    You are better off zeroing the way you will actually be shooting. At distance you can get a shift, even with a free-float rail, if you shoot from a rest on a bench to zero and then from prone (whether monopod or not) when it really matters.

    I have experienced this firsthand in trying to be quick about zeroing prior to a class and doing it from the bench because it was more convenient only to find that from prone in the class I was not getting the same POI.

    It only gets worse if the barrel is not free-floated.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I have experienced this firsthand in trying to be quick about zeroing prior to a class and doing it from the bench because it was more convenient only to find that from prone in the class I was not getting the same POI.

    It only gets worse if the barrel is not free-floated.
    Was this first hand experience on a rifle w/o a FF rail? How do you get a "shift" with a rested FF rifle if you are not applying any forces to the barrel? I would say think you may be causing the "shift".

    Also, theoretically why wouldn't you want any weapon sighted to be as close to the actual mechanical zero?

    If your POI is off then I would say that you are influencing the rifle. Knowing this you could correct your shooting.

    I'm having a hard time following the logic here.

    With a pistol this would even be more obvious. If you were jerking the trigger you may be low and to the left (right handed). With this philosophy I would be zeroing the gun high and to the right.

    I would would rather practice until I was shooting the actually zero of the gun.
    Last edited by OldState; 10-10-11 at 09:31.
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  4. #104
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    As one changes positions behind the gun, eye relief shifts, which can produce shifts in POI that have nothing to do with the gun.

    Choosing to zero from a bench instead of from the prone when zeroing form the prone is something that can be done, zeroing in such a way that lower positions (prone, sitting) can produce shifts one way and higher positions (kneeling, standing) can produce then the other way.

    BTW, these shifts are unlikely to be truly significant, and we're talking about point weapons, not precision, BUT...if you zero from the prone, eye-relief-induced (not factoring in other aspects) shifts will progress in one direction from a known point. Generally easier to keep track of....

    In either case, it still boils down to shooting your gun and knowing how your position may alter your POI,...

    ...but if given the choice between prone/bench, and one that presupposes he might be running/jumping/climbing trees at some point decides to go with the bench instead of a position he's likely to actually use (can't speak for all, but I NEVER carted around a portable bench overseas, nor asked the bad guys for a time-out so I could build some bench-like analogue), then he's gay enough to hold a pair of balls in his mouth for a moment, if not actively suck on them.

    If the active aspect is not part of a given shooter's likely usage, then it's not of any truly palpable impact which one he uses if he's smart enough to acknowledge how the POI will shift and take the time to know his gun as he should.

    Some folks are limited by which range they are using. If one is limited by a range that allows for nothing but bench shooting, then that range is diddle-ee-ai prancing gay, and the shooter is simply dealing with the cards he's been dealt.
    Contractor scum, AAV

  5. #105
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    Heh, I figured that would be controversial. Basically, if you have an Aimpoint M4 on your rifle your zero isn't going to shift noticibley unless you spend a lot of time doing what I call chasing zeros. I noticed that I am tempted to keep firing away while seated to get "the perfect zero," only to find that it shifts in different positions and of course due to the barrel warming up, etc. If you follow the minute of face/paper plate philosophy you won't really need to rezero but every great once in a while or never.

    I understand this goes counter to our temptation to extract the absolute last ounce of accuracy out of our rifles. But FOR ME this seems to be a waste of time. It also leads to things like shooting costly match ammo or practicing with different ammo than you intend to use in an emergency.

    My theory is you go to the range, put up your targets at 100 and 200 (which is as far as my range allows). I use metal disks that are 8 inches across. If I can hit them (and honestly I don't remember having to readjust my zero except when I was switiching between my old ACOG or T-1) then everything is good. I know an eight inch disk is WAY TOO BIG for some folks, but it is more than suitable for the use that I intend to put my carbine to.

    My major motivation in scorning the bag is people are tempted to fire away round after round tinkering with their zero. I say this is a waste. When you get to the range, if you can hit your targets from reality based positions at 100 and 200 there is no need to fool with it. IMHO.
    If you aren't armed when you take a dump in your own home then your opinion on what is a practical daily carry weapon isn't interesting to me.

  6. #106
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    I very much concur with this. People get wrapped around the axle of having to fire 1" groupings at (insert range) but yet call their AR a fighting rifle. A fighting rifle by design isn't intended to be a performance precision rig. If you want high precision, you're better off going with a bolt gun.

    Granted, some ARs set up properly can yield some excellent accuracy at pretty commendable ranges, but for the common man with a common weapon, reality based training and weapon set-up are more practical than trying to squeeze that last tenth of an inch of accuracy out of your set-up.

  7. #107
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    So zeroing a rifle from a stable platform is only done by homosexuals? Has this become apparent only since the repeal of "don't ask don't tell" or was it just confirmed?

    I think some people here have an issue to the word "bench". I thought the debate here is zeroing from a stable platform or not. I personally prefer that when I zero I eliminated as many external forces on the gun as possible. If you have a consistent cheekweld I'm not sure I am following how you would have issues, especially with a quality non magnified optic or iron sights. I have heard of, but never experienced this phenomena.

    What seems to be more probable is adjusting a zero to compensate for an issue related to shooting fundamentals.

    I have an Aimpoint and have never noticed a POI change whether I zeroed from a stable platform or prone with the magazine on the ground. In my limited experience with carbines, the rounds still seem to go where I intended and I have been able to accurately call most that don't, regardless of my shooting position.

    Also, I have never needed to fire more than 10 shots to zero. And that was when I first mounted the optic and 3 were to confirm.
    Last edited by OldState; 10-10-11 at 11:43.
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  8. #108
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    I think mostly what is being said here is just not to get wrapped around the idea of having to get the "perfect" zero from a bench, as opposed to a "BZO" or whatever the hell you want to call it. Especially with a non-precision rig, with something like an EOTech or Aimpoint, it's asinine to see a guy tinkering away for 30+ minutes trying to shoot some magic zero. Precision rifle with a high-power scope, yes. AR with a holo/red dot, no.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldState View Post
    What seems to be more probable is adjusting a zero to compensate for an issue related to shooting fundamentals.
    I would call it "shooting minutiae". I do not need to get my long-range accuracy skills down to the level such that I am not imparting any outside force on the firearm from prone. That is what you are advocating, and it's just not going to happen for anyone interested in anything other than nappy-time shooting.

    I need to be "good enough", and there reaches a point of diminishing returns. As Greg mentions, we need to establish our personal real-world accuracy goals and work to that. I can hit an 8" plate at 200 yards with an Aimpoint and milsurp ammo, and I'm not going to waste time trying to get better at that when that is the limit of my required accuracy for the shooting I do, and would envision myself doing. For me, spending range time working on shooting on the move, transitioning between targets, shooting with my weak-side shoulder, getting into and out of positions quickly, malfunction clearance, etc. is far more valuable and applicable.

    We are all victims of our frame of reference.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldState View Post
    So zeroing a rifle from a stable platform is only done by homosexuals?
    Only way that that is your take-away is if you deliberately ignore the modifying language preceding and following any reference to alternative lifestyles.

    I couched it in the language I did for a reason; so that the only ones who'd be offended would be those specifically looking for something with which to be offended.

    Maybe go back and read the remaining 98% of what was posted...?
    Contractor scum, AAV

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