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Thread: After 20 years, this is what I know about ARs... (Revision 1.2 on Page 10)

  1. #131
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    With regard to bench zeroing, I consider it to be essential to zero that way. Otherwise you don't really know the accuracy potential of your rifle, nor can you be certain your rifle is really zeroed correrctly.

    But.........having said that, I have been shooting from prone, sitting and standing a lot lately, and shooting from different positions sometimes does change the point of impact significantly from the bench POI. Which proves to me (when it happens) that I'm doing something wrong.

    Addendum: By "significantly" I mean a change in POI of 2-3 inches @ 100y.
    Last edited by SIMBA-LEE; 10-10-11 at 18:06.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost__1 View Post
    I can achieve that easier with respectably accurate volume of fire. Just a thought.
    Would it be harder with the most accurate volume of fire possible?
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldState View Post
    Would it be harder with the most accurate volume of fire possible?
    Definitely not but sitting at a bench for hours wont help you there. A nice strong class will though.

    I'm not trying to say that you should never bench zero I'm just saying that your not gonna get one hole at a hundred. I've been doing it for a couple years now and the only way I've found to get better at what I posted above is to get off a bench and practice it.
    "I know enough about a lot but enough to get me in trouble none the less." Me

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post

    Believe me, I know about not doing the "popular thing." Be a gear and gun dealer, go onto a tactical gun forum and tell folks to STOP buying crap they don't need.


    C4

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost__1 View Post
    Definitely not but sitting at a bench for hours wont help you there. A nice strong class will though.

    I'm not trying to say that you should never bench zero I'm just saying that your not gonna get one hole at a hundred. I've been doing it for a couple years now and the only way I've found to get better at what I posted above is to get off a bench and practice it.
    No one has said sitting at a bench for hours is desirable. We're responding to Greg's contention, and the other mods' support, that a bench is either not necessary or time-wasting when used at all. Sorry, but going that far is just silly.

  5. #135
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    Shooting from the bench has it's uses. Used correctly, it's a good place to establish a baseline zero and to check your rifle for accuracy, consistency & to help identify problems.

    One thing the AR Generation has little experience with is rifle tuning. Bolt actions, in general, are more accurate but have many more factors affecting consistency than an AR does.

    Shooting correctly from the bench eliminates shooter induced error. That means, in general, if your bench zero is different from your unsupported zero, either your bench technique need tuning or there is a shooter induced error.

    Because we live in an imperfect world, a wise rifleman will always take time to verify zero. If it's set at the bench, it should be verified from field positions in case there is a factor causing a shift.

    While some find long range shooting to induce somnambulism, I find trying to hit a distant target at an unknown range under field conditions interesting and challenging as it lets you explore the limits of your rifle and yourself. To me, shooting static targets at close range with a rifle gets boring. It doesn't take long before I start looking for more challenging shots. My idea of exciting, dynamic shooting is to hunt jackrabbits with a rifle.

    I know "carbine training" is more than shooting static targets at close range. Timers, magazine changes, multiple targets, malfunction drills are all added to make it more it more challenging. (I wonder if these skills are being learned by rote, only usable when the shooter finds itself under the same conditions, or if the shooter can flow the skills to adapt to a situation differing completely from the usual training drills. I don't have an answer to that, nor will I pretend I even have a glimmer of one. I suppose it differs with each individual.)

    While we shouldn't get wrapped around the axle and shoot too much from the bench, we also shouldn't get wrapped around the axle about never shooting from the bench. It's just another tool to be used as needed
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-10-11 at 17:04.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
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  6. #136
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    If you know that you are capable of perfect shots from prone, such that you can guarantee that you are not imparting negative mind-waves on the gun that may cause it to have a different perceived POI than when firing from a bench, why do you need to bother with the bench?




    See what happens when we focus on winning the (long drawn out and started long before this thread) argument and trying to catch people in minutiae instead of having an actual discussion?


    and to over-simplify what people who prefer to focus on possible real-world application of a firearm as doing as simply shooting stationary targets at close range is a pretty intentionally dishonest exaggeration, or exposes a complete ignorance of the pursuit, but I encourage anyone that thinks it's easy to come on out and give it a shot. We humble many a nappy-time shooter monthly. Twice if you'd like to come to drills. Some even run away, never to come back, proclaiming that it has interfered with their tactical-awesomeness! and that Rob is mean to them for no reason.
    Last edited by rob_s; 10-10-11 at 17:13.

  7. #137
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    As a newer carbine owner, I thank you for posting your observations and for (hopefully!) saving some of us a lot of our hard earned cash.

    I'll never understand the rationale behind owning multiple items which do exactly the same thing such as buying ten different ARs rather than owning and training with one, and I feel the same way about handguns. It would be extremely rare to find me at the range shooting anything but my Glock 23 and LWRC M6A3. (Yes, I went with a piston system).

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If you know that you are capable of perfect shots from prone, such that you can guarantee that you are not imparting negative mind-waves on the gun that may cause it to have a different perceived POI than when firing from a bench, why do you need to bother with the bench?

    See what happens when we focus on winning the (long drawn out and started long before this thread) argument and trying to catch people in minutiae instead of having an actual discussion?

    and to over-simplify what people who prefer to focus on possible real-world application of a firearm as doing as simply shooting stationary targets at close range is a pretty intentionally dishonest exaggeration, or exposes a complete ignorance of the pursuit, but I encourage anyone that thinks it's easy to come on out and give it a shot. We humble many a nappy-time shooter monthly. Twice if you'd like to come to drills. Some even run away, never to come back, proclaiming that it has interfered with their tactical-awesomeness! and that Rob is mean to them for no reason.
    Thank you for clarifying my point, Rob. Dismissing long range shooting as "nappy time" is just as an intentionally dishonest exaggeration as simplifying carbine training as "shooting close range static targets". Just because you find a skill set boring, doesn't mean it should be neglected.

    Yes, I think shooting close range targets with my rifle would be easy, as long as I'm only being asked to make hits. I know I cannot do it within the time standard and I know I would fumble magazine changes under those conditions because I haven't practiced. This is one aspect of my shooting skills that is lacking due to my neglect.

    If I lived in your area, I'd join your group and bring a big can of whipped cream to go with my well earned slice of humble pie. I wouldn't run because I have no tactical awesomeness to be interfered with and you'd have to go a long way to match the meanness of the old curmudgeons I've known in my life
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-10-11 at 17:47.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  9. #139
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    Concerning bench rest zeroing, there are differences when shooting from field positions. But, the amount of difference depends on how you shoot from the bench.

    I zeroed a rifle, a 6mm Remington, from a medium weight sled type rest, on a concrete bench. Then before a hunt I checked the zero lying prone, with the rifle resting over my shooting bag. It was four inches off, to the lower left. Not one shot, but the entire group. On examining the rifle, nothing was loose and no sign of any other issues.

    My point is, the more you get away from a field type position on the bench, the more your gun will be off in field positions. So if you rest the forend of your rifle on some type of bag, on the bench, and keep the butt on your shoulder, it is a lot closer to field type use than using any type of rest that holds the butt of the rifle in it's own cradle. A "machine" recoiling is different than your own body, even if you have the butt end on your shoulder.

    I still use the sled type rest, if I'm running a test box of hand loaded ammo, in order to determine which load is the most accurate. After that the mechanical rest stays in my garage.
    "Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master." Dwight D. Eisenhower

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye M6A3 View Post
    I'll never understand the rationale behind owning multiple items which do exactly the same thing such as buying ten different ARs rather than owning and training with one, and I feel the same way about handguns.

    As a survivor of the 1989 and 1994 Assault Weapons bans I can tell you that having "spares" was ingrained into me permanently. There was a time when a lot of weapons and their spare parts stopped being imported overnight, leaving a person with not having the ability to obtain a replacement weapon or parts if a primary weapon went down.

    Ever try to locate a replacement stock for a broken one on a Daewoo K2? I did. I never located one and sold the rifle to someone who thought he could fix it. I pretty much slowly parted with all my foreign-made hi-cap rifles after that.

    Now that the bans have expired, I still like to have one or two spares in case a primary weapon goes down and has to be in someone's shop for repair. Another scenario is that your primary weapon goes down and you have to wait for availability on a replacement part. The spare(s) at least give you the capability to carry on normally. I keep spare parts, too, but only on the ones likely to break frequently.

    I don't understand anyone having ten of the exact same rifle, but I certainly do understand one or two "spares."
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 10-10-11 at 18:06.

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