Heavy 5.56 vs Mid 6.8 vs Light 308 for Defense

[DocGKR]

Evergreen--you state here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90340) that you want to purchase another rifle. If you have the money to waste on that needless purchase, you could just as easily spend it more wisely on training... Don't purchase hardware that you do not need; learn to master some of the tools you already possess!

In none of the well run training courses will you have to "blow excessive amounts of ammo". I gave you a list of good trainers above. Sign up for a course. While waiting for the day of the course, you can watch some videos by the instructors I mentioned--you can even find some on YouTube for free. In addition, consider reading some books, like the ones by Kyle Lamb, and/or finding free online discussions and essays by some of the recommended instructors.

If you truly desire to improve your skills, you now know what needs to be accomplished. Either that or you will continue to find vacuous, flatulent rationalizations why you willingly choose to remain mired in ignorance and mediocrity...

[Spooky130]

Evergreen...

I was just like you - looking for the perfect solution without getting the training I needed. Books and videos are good but are no substitute for a solid training class. I took 2x EAG classes and 1x Vickers class and they were beyond good. Two of the finest instructors available and I walked away knowing more than I ever had about shooting in IPSC/IDPA/3-gun matches or with friends. Hell, the Trident Concepts head instructor was in one of the EAG classes to learn if that tells you anything! Stockpile the money and get to a class - if your other class didn't teach you anything you took the wrong class or chose the wrong instructor...

Your LMT MRP is all the rifle you need. If you decide late the 5.56 isn't for you, a 6.8 LMT set up is only $500 away plus mags and ammo.

Spooky

[Sid Post]

Doc, do you think there would be any meaningful knowledge I can gain from reading books and watching videos from skilled trainers? As much as I would like to do training, I don't have the time or money right now. I work like 60-80 hours week right now. I'm lucky to get a day off at the range. However, I would love to attain as much knowledge as possible, until I can allot time and funds for a good training course. Also, I am always interested to find low-cost training courses that would be deemed effective.

Avoid the gun show disinformation stuff and buy good quality training videos (or look for good on-line videos and forum posts) from the top schools and instructors. It is not the same as taking a class but, it's one that can be a great aid to training when you only have an hour or two after work. Books and videos, like schools, can be a great resource or a waste of time and money. Shop carefully and spend wisely for best results.

I just don't like the type of courses where they have you blow so much excessive amounts of ammo. I think these courses might be a bit outdated perhaps and were probably developed back when ammo was actually affordable. On another note, perhaps I can consider classes where 22LR would be acceptable in the course; obviously, not feasible for any long range rifle type courses.

An air rifle/pistol is a great choice for improving technique. A 22lr is a good choice too. However, neither is a replacement for training with a centerfire rifle/pistol.

Regarding excessive round counts - you aren't testing primers at those courses. A well thought out course will have a lot of rounds sent down range. After all, can you really learn how to shoot well without actually shooting?

Ammunition costs a lot now. It cost me a lot (more even?) years ago because even though cost per box was less, I earned a heck of a lot less too! Affluence now allows me to shoot more. However, in this tough economy a lot of people are struggling with everyday finances so your comment is a very valid one. Heck, for all I know I could be looking for a job in a few months too. Effective use of what money you have should include an assessment of qualified instruction costs versus the costs of unlearning bad habits later.

[Evergreen]

Evergreen--you state here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90340) that you want to purchase another rifle. If you have the money to waste on that needless purchase, you could just as easily spend it more wisely on training... Don't purchase hardware that you do not need; learn to master some of the tools you already possess!

Sorry Doc, but what I meant was that I would trade in the rifle I have to allow me to purchase another rifle. Basically, I would like to trade my DPMS LR-308 for another rifle that I find I could put more to use. Basically, my LR-308 is a long range, bench/competition gun that is built with very tight tolerances that doesn't allow me to use lower grade ammo. Considering, I am not a long range bench shooter, this gun really is not useful for me.

However, after this discussion I have a different idea about what type of rifle I should own to practice with. Basically, if I sell my DPMS LR-308, I wouldn't mind having a second AR with a different barrel length /configuration to allow for different type of practicing. Basically, I am looking for a couple different tools to practice with for a couple different jobs. I hardly thinking owning two ARs can be considered stockpiling weapons I won't use, right?

In none of the well run training courses will you have to "blow excessive amounts of ammo". I gave you a list of good trainers above. Sign up for a course. While waiting for the day of the course, you can watch some videos by the instructors I mentioned--you can even find some on YouTube for free. In addition, consider reading some books, like the ones by Kyle Lamb, and/or finding free online discussions and essays by some of the recommended instructors.

If you truly desire to improve your skills, you now know what needs to be accomplished. Either that or you will continue to find vacuous, flatulent rationalizations why you willingly choose to remain mired in ignorance and mediocrity...

I appreciate all the information you have given me. You and others here have given me already some valuable information that I will look further into. Please forgive me for the fact that I lack time and money to spend on more adequate training and research. Shooting is something that I have a passion for and I really want to become a proficient rifle, pistol and big bore revolver shooter. However, trying to survive with my work and all the worries and stress that are placed on me do get in the way.

I just moved to Idaho a few days ago and we have a lot of nice gun ranges and great places to shoot, including a lot of BLM land. So, I think I will certainly get more time to shoot. It was hard living in Western Oregon finding adequate places to practice.

[Evergreen]

An air rifle/pistol is a great choice for improving technique. A 22lr is a good choice too. However, neither is a replacement for training with a centerfire rifle/pistol.

Regarding excessive round counts - you aren't testing primers at those courses. A well thought out course will have a lot of rounds sent down range. After all, can you really learn how to shoot well without actually shooting?

With respect to the costs, I will only be able to attend a class with high round count with 22LR. Considering, the fact I need to be proficient with my centerfire rifle, I may just need to do my best with training methods that work on using less ammo to improve skill. I don't exactly know how this can be achieved, but I am hoping more training programs will modify their courses with the economy in mind.


If Ammo prices get any higher, the only thing I will be able to afford is this:

Sorry, I just wanted to have fun with the forum's smilies there

[turdbocharged]

With respect to the costs, I will only be able to attend a class with high round count with 22LR. Considering, the fact I need to be proficient with my centerfire rifle, I may just need to do my best with training methods that work on using less ammo to improve skill. I don't exactly know how this can be achieved, but I am hoping more training programs will modify their courses with the economy in mind.


If Ammo prices get any higher, the only thing I will be able to afford is this:

Sorry, I just wanted to have fun with the forum's smilies there

I'm not sure about using a 22LR for a training class, others will have to chime in. However talk to Grant on this forum he runs a free training class in Ohio and we only used about 100-150 rounds of 5.56 for each class. Focusing on the fundamentals which it seems you would be well suited to learn.

Good Luck!

Josh

[rob_s]

Sorry, I don't know how to word it exactly. I am just looking for an all around good SHTF/zombie/ world coming to an end gun.

This is the holy grail of the internets. It doesn't exist. Or, more particularly, it does exist and the 5.56 is it.

There are too many variables to compile a complete list, but you need something that offers the ballistic performance you desire coupled with the cost-effectiveness of being able to train with it, and the availability of ammunition to feed it.

[Sid Post]

I'm not sure about using a 22LR for a training class, others will have to chime in.

22's and air rifles aren't going to be a good choice for most training classes. However for private practice, they really do allow you to build good skills that transfer directly to centerfire.

[constructor]

This is the holy grail of the internets. It doesn't exist. Or, more particularly, it does exist and the 5.56 is it.

There are too many variables to compile a complete list, but you need something that offers the ballistic performance you desire coupled with the cost-effectiveness of being able to train with it, and the availability of ammunition to feed it.

Agree here, there is no reason to look anywhere other than the 5.56 for training or home defense, ammo is cheap and 556 parts are every where, control and recovery is much faster than any other caliber. The 308 rifle and ammo is much heavier than the AR15 platform, parts are different throughout the AR10/LR308/Mega/POF/ platform, slower recovery. If you also wanted to hunt then the 6.8 may be an option but ammo at $15 a box can hurt your training frequency. Depends on your priority.

[Sid Post]

I'm very happy with my LMT and don't really need another brand. I was just thinking about caliber, but I am thinking that 5.56 would be most cost efficient and effective. I think I would prefer to plink with steel case 5.56 over 5.45 round. I'm not too familiar with it, but I would think 5.56 is as low as I would go. If I want to plink with anything lighter I would go for a 22LR conversion kit or a 10/22.

$224 for 2160 at US Armory Corp is hard to beat. 13 cases will last you a long time. I'm trying to wear out an AR-15/M-16 upper so, this was the most cost effective option for me.