M&P vs G19 Parte Deux: Photo Essay

[David Thomas]

C4 and 1911fan,

What makes it poor, may I inquire? Can you articulate why it's poor rather than just citing that no one advocates it. I'm all ears.

Poor grip? Yes, maybe for some, but I'd wager that it has far more to do with an individual's hand and the weapon being used than simply concluding as a blanket statement that it doesn't work.

I surmise that many instructors don't advocate it (for the same reasons I don't as a general rule) it simply offers no significant advantages over more conventional grips. Some instructors are simply dogmatic.

Tim

This topic has derailed a little from the original post, but in response to the finger on the trigger guard isssue, I will reply as follows. It has nothing to do with being dogmatic or blanket statements. It has more to do with geometry and physics and the process of evolution. Grips/stances/styles have all changed and evolved over the years. Accordingly, the current method or grip for two hand pistol shooting based on this process of evolution has resulted in a two handed grip on the gun virtually precludes wrapping your finger around the trigger guard. To do would put your thumb and wrist in the wrong position/alignment.

I am far from an expert on the subject, and if I am wrong someone will be along shortly to correct me. Also, if you haven't seen it already watch the Todd Jarret video and read the information contained in one of GOTM4's posts regarding Dave Sevigny's grip. Both are informative.

[sigmundsauer]

This topic has derailed a little from the original post, but in response to the finger on the trigger guard isssue, I will reply as follows. It has nothing to do with being dogmatic or blanket statements. It has more to do with geometry and physics and the process of evolution. Grips/stances/styles have all changed and evolved over the years. Accordingly, the current method or grip for two hand pistol shooting based on this process of evolution has resulted in a two handed grip on the gun virtually precludes wrapping your finger around the trigger guard. To do would put your thumb and wrist in the wrong position/alignment.

I am far from an expert on the subject, and if I am wrong someone will be along shortly to correct me. Also, if you haven't seen it already watch the Todd Jarret video and read the information contained in one of GOTM4's posts regarding Dave Sevigny's grip. Both are informative.

Yes, Dave, I agree the topic has derailed, in no small part to me. Oh well, it's a discussion forum.

I would agree that certain two-handed grips do preclude the need to wrap a finger around the trigger guard, which is why I personally no longer do so. However, that technique is still viable, and on certain weapons can increase isometric tension and absorb trigger errors better. I wouldn't do it for the purposes of recoil control, though.

Recoil control and technique in general are all very dependent on the individual shooter and the weapon being used. What causes a grip to break on a 1911 may be perfectly adequate on a 9mm SIG. However, I will state that a conventional two-hand grip will usually work well with most all pistols, and that's a good reason to use it.

No dogmatic instructors?! Come on! :P

Tim

[C4IGrant]

Yes, Dave, I agree the topic has derailed, in no small part to me. Oh well, it's a discussion forum.

I would agree that certain two-handed grips do preclude the need to wrap a finger around the trigger guard, which is why I personally no longer do so. However, that technique is still viable, and on certain weapons can increase isometric tension and absorb trigger errors better. I wouldn't do it for the purposes of recoil control, though.

Recoil control and technique in general are all very dependent on the individual shooter and the weapon being used. What causes a grip to break on a 1911 may be perfectly adequate on a 9mm SIG. However, I will state that a conventional two-hand grip will usually work well with most all pistols, and that's a good reason to use it.

No dogmatic instructors?! Come on! :P

Tim

I can also shot my handguns upside down and hit the target (maybe better than some people can shoot normally). The point is that you can train/condition yourself to overcome any obstacle (given enough time and practice). Since pistol shooting (well) is hard enough, why make it even that much hard by using a poor grip?? Putting your finger on the trigger guard gives you no advantage and in most cases creates problems. It also cannot use a weapon mounted light (which is a must IMHO).


C4

[sigmundsauer]

I can also shot my handguns upside down and hit the target (maybe better than some people can shoot normally). The point is that you can train/condition yourself to overcome any obstacle (given enough time and practice). Since pistol shooting (well) is hard enough, why make it even that much hard by using a poor grip?? Putting your finger on the trigger guard gives you no advantage and in most cases creates problems. It also cannot use a weapon mounted light (which is a must IMHO).


C4

C4,

I respect your opinion, though I disagree that it is an obstacle. For the many who don't shoot with a weapon mounted light, it's a moot point.

I can shoot just as accurately, and am fully able to lock down my primary grip using my support hand regardless of my finger on or off the trigger guard. It can be done without sacrificing anything. Just because some can't doesn't make it obsolete. I would agree that it is unnecessary and marginally more complicated, but I won't dispel it as defunct. There are enough variations in pistol grips that any grip once mastered should work (trade-offs and advantages not discounted).

My definition of a poor grip is one that cannot be compensated for because it inherently compromised. I don't think this is one of them. Opinions vary, and I would not purposefully teach this grip either, as there are simpler options. And I would never use it with a 1911, which seems to be the unspoken baseline for all references. It is perfectly viable on SIGs and Glocks.

Tim

[Steelshooter]

Nice review. It will be interesting to see if newer polymer pistols like the XD and M&P cause Glock to make any major changes to their ergonomics or design. I think the 21SF is a direct response to the XD .45 since the GAP isn't going anywhere. My guess is Glock won't do much for awhile though.

As to the G 19/23 it is one of the few smaller pistols that fits my hand meaning I can get all my fingers around it. i can't do that with the compact M&P's. I guess it's a moot point since I CCW a full size M&P .45 in a High Noon slide guard holster.....