Be a good student

[John_Wayne777]

Grant,

Your heart is in the right place and I agree with your premise: advanced shooting schools require students with their shiite all in one bag. However, I disagree with your list of what is important.

At the recent LMS Defense hosting of LAV, possibly the best shot, i.e. could pass all of your marksmanship tests, was a three gun shooter who swept, flagged, lasered, POINTED A FRIGGING RIFLE AT ME, a number of times. He is a far better shooter than I will ever be. Another shooter shot on my target during zeroing.

I believe the gist of what Grant is getting at is folks who receive the same instruction as the rest of the shooters on the line, but that do not seem to learn from it.

That's not as annoying as people who have muzzle control issues, but it's still taxing on instructors (especially on instructors) and fellow shooters.

Personally my number one piece of advice to people who ask me about training courses is that they spend time learning to connect their brain to the end of the muzzle of their weapon and keep their finger away from the trigger.

Some classes/instructors are pretty nazi about safety regs to the point where you don't walk around with hot weapons and you don't manipulate them whatsoever unless you are on the firing line and told to do so. (Not even admin reloads and the like.

Others have more "big boy" rules where they simply expect you to keep your finger off the trigger and your muzzle in a safe direction at all times. If you have to (or want to) manipulate your weapon you do so in a way that doesn't end up pointing your weapon at anyone.

In either case I would suggest that while instructors see a lot, they don't see everything. If you as a member of the class see someone who is having muzzle control issues, take them aside and tell them about it in a polite but firm way. Encourage others to do the same. Safety on the range is EVERYONE'S responsibility.

If there are problems the instructors will often enlist more experienced guys to help the way that Ken did during group 1's runs through the shoothouse.

[C4IGrant]

Safety is always #1. I considered that a "given" that needs not mentioning. With that said, being an ultra safe shooter, but horrible at everything else (including paying attention to detail) will cause you to bring down the class (as described above).

As I said in my first post, you don't have to be the master of any of the drills listed, but you should be comfortable with them and know how to handle your weapons.

You ask people to man up and be realistic about their ability. The issue is that they are not and think they are they are "superstars" (hence why I listed some drills to establish a bench mark).


C4

[David Blinder]

Grant,

For any course I conduct or host that is intermediate or above, any attendee that I don't know personally or that I can verify their skills with a credible instructor is required to take and pass this course of fire. I provide it to them in advance so they can determine if they can pass before registering but if they can't do it at the beginning of the course, they are sent home with no refund given or tears tolerated. So far, we've never sent anyone home but have sure had a bunch who decided not to sign up. Feel free to use, modify or discard as you prefer.

This course was designed to allow evaluation of a shooter’s core skills on a limited facility. The intent is to determine if a prospective student has skill sets that would allow them to safely and productively participate in a course more strenuous than an entry level class.

It will test presentation, malfunction clearance, speed reloads, freestyle and one handed shooting, basic movement and accuracy. All firing is at 7 yards. Target is an 8.5”X11” piece of paper. ALL 15 rounds must be on the paper to qualify and must be within the time constraints.

1. Start with 4 live rounds and one inert dummy round in the gun. Inert round is 3rd or 4th in the magazine. On signal, draw and fire until empty, reload and fire 3 additional rounds. Fix stoppage when it occurs. At least one lateral sidestep must occur on the presentation, on the stoppage reduction and on the reload. Time limit = 15 seconds.
2. Start with only 2 rounds in the gun (one in chamber, one in magazine) and 2 rounds in spare magazine. On signal, draw and fire 2 rounds, reload, fire 2 rounds. Time limit = 10 seconds
3. On signal, draw with dominant hand only and fire 2 rounds. Time limit = 2 seconds.
4. Start from “low ready” with pistol in the non-dominant hand with pistol aligned no higher than belt line or lower than knee level of the target. On signal, fire 2 rounds with non-dominant hand only. Time limit = 3 seconds

15 hits on the paper, no over time limit shots and no procedural errors = pass

[Treehopr]

Grant,

Interesting points you bring up.

Some of the standards you bring up are going to be difficult for people to train. At my local Sportsmen club they get worked up if I don't make a Condition 4 carbine before heading downrange to tape targets.

Many people don't get a chance to shoot on the move or in low light at home so the only chance they/we get to do it is at a class like this. And "box drill" may mean something entirely different depending on who you train with.

I'm with Pat in that I'd rather be safe and slow instead of over running my headlights and endangering someone else.

The HV-LL class is admittedly an intense class but I would submit that if both classes were having these types of issues than there might be something wrong in the formula. Maybe fewer students in the class and on each relay? Perhaps more time spent doing things dry in daylight?

I know for the first class there were times I had difficulty hearing instructions (not just range commands but the actual lecture portions) since the other relay might be shooting and the ranges were so close to each other.

Also the style of teaching was definitely sink or swim. If you didn't have your skill sets in place on day one it wasn't likely that you'd be any better by day 2 or 3.

A class like this is a difficult thing to pull off; to have so many people from different and unknown backgrounds come together for 3 days and go from square range drills to room clearing to low light to low light room clearing and then add 2 man room clears along with stacks is intense and potentially dangerous. That Ken and Larry have been able to do this is a credit to their teaching abilities.

This is a worthwhile class to take if you have the resources and the basic skill sets prior to coming to this class. My preference is to take a basic course from an instructor prior to taking a more advanced class but that's not always possible. I would like to think that I'm humble enough to know when I'm in over my head and expect any instructor to let me know if I'm doing something unsafe. If all you do is take "basic" classes you'll never know what you don't know.

[Rmplstlskn]

I've never even attended a class from instructors who are known outside of local classes, but I can say this.... I would NEVER, EVER, EVER show up to a class with the likes of Vickers or Rodgers and not have ALL MY WEAPONS zero'ed and know what my POI's are at various ranges using the same ammo I use at that class. Even my knife would be sharpened...

Moreover, although I have been around this sport for a long time and love to talk specs, details and tactical hypothesis's, my MIND and EARS would be engaged but my MOUTH would be in neutral until needed. I would be constantly on guard, almost to a fault, that my actions, or INACTIONS, would not hinder or drag down the group. The "widget x -vs- widget z" questions would never come up during class time (maybe over some beers later...) I'm there to get PREACHED TO and obey like Moses at the burning bush... I'll pick his brain off the clock, off the range...

But I do know of and have seen guys like the ones Grant and Templar speak of... yet what to do about them is frustrating. The only thing I can think of is that the INSTRUCTORS need to ensure pre-req's are met and exercise more authority to discipline and/or boot out students (with no refund) that are disruptive, unprepared, dangerous or over their heads skill-wise. This possibility should be clearly stated, agreed to and signed by the student beforehand.

Plus, for AAR's I have read, most instructors like Vickers or Rodgers do not sound like the kind of wilting violets that could not enforce this discipline... I'm sure they KNOW who will improve later on as the class progresses and who the asses are... as to err is human. But to err and not learn from it is FOOLISH, and no one needs any fools on the range.

But if I take a ENTRY LEVEL class with anyone here... give this overweight guy a break...

Rmpl

[C4IGrant]

Grant,

Interesting points you bring up.

Some of the standards you bring up are going to be difficult for people to train. At my local Sportsmen club they get worked up if I don't make a Condition 4 carbine before heading downrange to tape targets.

Many people don't get a chance to shoot on the move or in low light at home so the only chance they/we get to do it is at a class like this. And "box drill" may mean something entirely different depending on who you train with.

I'm with Pat in that I'd rather be safe and slow instead of over running my headlights and endangering someone else.

The HV-LL class is admittedly an intense class but I would submit that if both classes were having these types of issues than there might be something wrong in the formula. Maybe fewer students in the class and on each relay? Perhaps more time spent doing things dry in daylight?

I know for the first class there were times I had difficulty hearing instructions (not just range commands but the actual lecture portions) since the other relay might be shooting and the ranges were so close to each other.

Also the style of teaching was definitely sink or swim. If you didn't have your skill sets in place on day one it wasn't likely that you'd be any better by day 2 or 3.

A class like this is a difficult thing to pull off; to have so many people from different and unknown backgrounds come together for 3 days and go from square range drills to room clearing to low light to low light room clearing and then add 2 man room clears along with stacks is intense and potentially dangerous. That Ken and Larry have been able to do this is a credit to their teaching abilities.

This is a worthwhile class to take if you have the resources and the basic skill sets prior to coming to this class. My preference is to take a basic course from an instructor prior to taking a more advanced class but that's not always possible. I would like to think that I'm humble enough to know when I'm in over my head and expect any instructor to let me know if I'm doing something unsafe. If all you do is take "basic" classes you'll never know what you don't know.

Being safe and slow is just fine I think. I also understand that everyone cannot do a lot of the drills I listed. There were just some that I could think of off the top of my head.

Everyone wants to advance to the next level, but not everyone should and or can. If you go to a class an then never practice what you learn, then what good is it going to training?


C4

[Dport]

If you go to a class an then never practice what you learn, then what good is it going to training?


C4

Hence the reason I haven't attended a training class this year. The dearth of facilities near my present location means I cannot really practice what I've been taught so far. So why waste everyone's time as I attempt to get back up to speed?

I have a Beamhit system to help with the rust, but it is no solution for regimented live fire practice.

[Treehopr]

Being safe and slow is just fine I think. I also understand that everyone cannot do a lot of the drills I listed. There were just some that I could think of off the top of my head.

Everyone wants to advance to the next level, but not everyone should and or can. If you go to a class an then never practice what you learn, then what good is it going to training?


C4

Understood, Grant.

However, being able to practice what you learned may not always be feasible due to range restrictions. I go to classes partly to get my practice in, not just to learn new things. I'll take the same class twice if and when I can so I have a better idea of whether I'm improving or not. This also makes it easier for both me and the instructor since I've got a better idea of how he teaches and hopefully he's got a better idea of how I learn.

As each instructor has their own teaching style each student has theirs. For a class like this that may be 24 different learning styles that need to be accommodated. As Larry was fond of saying in the first class, to paraphrase, "obviously this relay is doing better because most of you have trained with me before". I vaguely remember Ken saying something to the effect that the class was normally a 3 week class compressed in to 3 days.

Perhaps a class like this should only be open to alumni, or perhaps a one day skills class added beforehand to make it a 4 day class. I think Tactical Response did exactly that when they started doing their HRCC courses and needed to even out the skill levels.

I think we agree that the problem isn't with students in entry level classes but rather how to bridge the gap from basic to more advanced classes.

[the1911fan]

Grant,

Your heart is in the right place and I agree with your premise: advanced shooting schools require students with their shiite all in one bag. However, I disagree with your list of what is important.

At the recent LMS Defense hosting of LAV, possibly the best shot, i.e. could pass all of your marksmanship tests, was a three gun shooter who swept, flagged, lasered, POINTED A FRIGGING RIFLE AT ME, a number of times. He is a far better shooter than I will ever be. Another shooter shot on my target during zeroing.

I will never win a shooting competition, however, I guarantee that I will make it my mission not to flag another person nor shoot a hostage target. That's what is important to me in my line of work. I will work on my shooting like a jerk, but safety violations can not be forgiven.

If you can master the four rules of firearms safety, and not shoot someone else's target, you should be good to go with most training short of shoot house stuff.

Ego is a funny thing. I paid $1200 to attend an LAV class and asked his advice re my severe cross dominance. His advice was to shoot the whole class left handed with rifle so I could start with good habits. Like the tool I am, I shot right-handed and shot like a jerk on his standard exercises. I paid the man for his advice and then completely ignored it. The windows in the short bus taste good!

In my experience, after taking 7 major name firearms classes from folks you would recognize in SWAT magazine: show up and be prepared to try their way of doing things. You are paying for their experience and knowledge; try it and take what you can from it. LIVE safety. All the time. Finger off trigger and in register alongside the frame unless you are on target, ready to fire. I don't even point blue guns at people unless it's during a scenario. I will never be the best shot, but I will damn sure be the best and safest gun-handler on any call.

If you want to take a class that will teach you gun-handling and safety, go see Scott Reitz at ITTS.

There is no excuse to be unsafe. Be true to yourself and admit that you are not high-speed enough to take a class that involves shoot houses and the like. I would respect a man who can admit he needs to take a basic class rather than someone who fakes it and endangers others.

Having attended the training Grant is talking about I believe the pace and small amount of RO's have a bit to do with it also. No doubt the individual training deficits Grant mentions are the larger problem. They pack a lot into 3 days, in a strictly LE setting we would have to do 6-8 days to get in what LAV/Hackathorn did in 3 days and we'd have an RO for every 5 officers being trained. You also have to know when to stand down if there is a drill or evolution that you are not comfortable taking part in.

I chose my partner in the no light shoot house very carefully, I was as comfortable with my partner as if I had worked with the guy for years. Again the pace was pretty high and you could see those training deficits really showing up when you watched some others from the Catwalk, for others it was cakewalk. I came out of the shoot house with much respect for my partner who happened to be one helluva pistol shooter, he BTW is an instructor at Bill Rogers shooting school. My partner and I both opted out of going through the shoot house with the subgun that was made available b/c of not being totally familiar with the weapon.

For advanced classes IMO a smaller class size, a higher entry fee to cover the lower amount of students, and something along the lines of what Mr. Blinder requires (maybe refund 50% if they fail) to gain entry.

[Jay Cunningham]

There were a couple of individuals in that class that shouldn't have been there.

I had to admonish one of those individuals about their muzzle control.

I myself wound up a bit distracted toward the end of TD2. At one point I was standing there waiting to shoot my box drill... waiting...

LAV was getting talked up about gear, and I mean for like a long time. This was in the middle of a drill. I was getting cold and irritable because I was just standing there waiting for the conversation to end.

I found my own performance degrade a bit after that point. I was guilty of a bit of freelancing, but I was prepared to go to 1:00am. I think a 10 minute break to get a drink and "refocus" might have been good.

I can understand why LAV was getting irritated though - I know I was.