Rethinking VFG's?

[onmilo]

I have been using SOG graphite vertical foregrips on my rifles with rails.
They are shorter and much lighter than most VFGs on the market.
Like other posters, I don't like adding a lot of weight out front, doesn't make much sense to bolt ten pounds of stuff on the forearm of an eight pound rifle.

[toddackerman]

I have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury, so for the sake of this discussion, I'm not willing to use this method unless it is absolutely necessary for a "Special Requirement" shot. Certainly not as my Standard Method.

Pretty much agreeing with just about every the "Pros"regarding VFG's I see here. Still very interested in the "Cons" anyone has experienced.

Can anyone who has had training from several "Noted Instructors" I.e., Vickers, Rogers, Pincus etc. share their thoughts and the "Whys" with us? I'm not sure this just isn't a personal preference issue, but I it's not, I want to start experimenting with what you guys believe are issues, and weed it out from there for myself.

Thanks!

[Jay Cunningham]

LAV said that he is not a big fan of VFG's, but that they do have a place. The reason that he doesn't care for them is because he teaches to put your support hand far out on the front of the carbine and really grip it and pull it into your shoulder. LAV teaches the most aggressive carbine stance that I've ever seen used, and I quite like it.

OTOH, in the recent low light class, he made mention that the VFG can be valuable if you have several devices (white light, vis/IR lasers) that need activated. He also teaches a low light transition where you tuck the inop long gun under your support arm and use the light on it while you draw and engage the threat one-handed with the pistol. He said in this case the VFG aids in leveraging the light onto target.

[Failure2Stop]

Please do not take this as a critisizm of your shooting technique but you are aware of the gas venting path in the gun in case of a cartidge failure or a severe overload.

From an engineering standpoint the use of a VFG is a moot point. Holding the magazine well is certainly not to be recomended.

Bill- thank you for your input, and please do not take this as implying that you are incorrect, but as clarification and information gathering on my part.

From what I have seen with AR kBs, gas is vented, as you say, down the magazine, resulting in magazine blow-out. Though the magazine usually stays in the weapon, the floor plate is blown off, along with the ammunition, follower and spring. I have seen no damage to the front of the magazine well even with catastrophic failure of the upper receiver.

Pics HERE
Another one HERE
One more HERE
In a thread on another forum, a kB caused damage to only the upper receiver and bolt/BGC.
Pat Rogers personally had a kB, IIRC was utilizing a magwell grip, no injuries, as thankfully his Oakleys stopped a chunk of aluminum from entering his eye.

To be clear, the way I grip the magwell, is not really a magwell "grip", as only the pinkie and ring finger really make contact with the magwell, and the pinkie rests above the lip on the magwell.

My magwell grip also allows me to physically remove all magazines during a reload. This completely eliminates the possibility that I have an empty magazine stuck in the weapon when I try to stuff a new magazine into the magwell. Further, I can reacquire my grip faster than when having to move my hand forward to a VFG. Also, without a VFG I don't have any concern about the VFG interfering with my reloads or corrective actions.

I have personally never had a kB, but I have had quite a few stuck magazines. I focused on improving my skills in the situations that would be the most critical to my team-mates and myself.

I have never seen credible proof (hospital report/accident report) that a magwell hold (as I describe) has led to serious injury. However, I have seen reports of injury sustained from spontaneously disassembling upper receivers causing injury to the face/eyes, as well as obstructed bores causing injury to the support hand when gripping the handguard. I do not recommend against gripping the handguard though.

If, however, you have information/reports/photos that I do not, I would be very interested in it. As I said, I am not attempting to discredit or attack you, just explaining my reasoning and try to gather more information. As a manufacturer I am sure that you have done much more testing than I personally have, and are probably privvy to manufacturing concepts that I am not.

Thanks for your time and concern.

[Harv]

toddackerman

have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury, so for the sake of this discussion, I'm not willing to use this method unless it is absolutely necessary for a "Special Requirement" shot. Certainly not as my Standard Method.

Pretty much agreeing with just about every the "Pros"regarding VFG's I see here. Still very interested in the "Cons" anyone has experienced.

Can anyone who has had training from several "Noted Instructors" I.e., Vickers, Rogers, Pincus etc. share their thoughts and the "Whys" with us? I'm not sure this just isn't a personal preference issue, but I it's not, I want to start experimenting with what you guys believe are issues, and weed it out from there for myself.

Thanks!

OK.. now your getting in to a pet peeve of mine.. the mag well hold...
This is a topic that circulates the Internet with stories of Kabooms and the "could haves" and "what ifs" based solely on a few pics and noting more.

I have never seen one shred of documented proof of anyone using a mag well hold that had a kaboom doing anymore serious damage to there hand then what would happen to there face.

Yet guys perpetuate this by parroting something they have never seen or experienced first hand.. just based off of pictures on the internet.

Hell.. Most guys will never shoot enough ammo in there life time where they might actually fall in to the odds of actually having a Kaboom in the first place.. let alone having one... while holding the mag well and actually doing serious damage to the hand (loss of digits..mangled hand,etc)

If I did not think the VFG had some merit.. I would not use it.. like any tool in a tool box.. you try it and see if it works..

That said I have shot under several Instructors... some like and use the VFG.. (Pat Rogers) and )some don't.. (Greg Sullivan)there not there to make you do it there way.. they are there to show you A WAY and let you go from there.

I believe the benefits of the grip have already been stated many times.
Allows a better fighting stance when shooting squared up vs. bladed..
Allows you to control the weapon and drive it on Multiple targets quicker..
Helps control muzzle climb...

[Failure2Stop]

I have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury...

Would you mind posting those pictures? I have been unable to find any and would like to see them.

Please do not take this as doubting your information or integrity, I would just like to see the pics.

ETA: Apologies for the derailment of this thread.

To bring it back on track for at least the end of my post:

Most instructors I have trained with really don't care if you use a VFG or not, just that you know how to use it. Pat uses a grip like mine on his VFG, thus his preponderance toward stubby grips.

[USMC03]

Just this year I have trained with both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers, and have trained with several other trainers over the years. Each trainer has a different background and different reasons why they choose the gear they choose. I choose my gear based on my personal experiences and what works best for me. Something that needs some consideration: my mission and the gear that I carry may be drastically different than the trainer that I'm training under.

It has been said by men much smarter and much more experience than me: "The mission drives the gear" (the gear doesn't drive or direct the mission).

I copied my reply from another thread as to why and when *I* use a vertical foregrip:

(the quote was written by the guy that started the discussion, my reply is under his quote)

Originally posted by xxx_x:


I learned in architecture school that the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning. "Form follows function", if you will. In other words, if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid.



Brown Rifle

The goal is to be able to hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards and have enough energy at that range for the bullet used to terminally perform properly. Ideally it would also be capable of making shots with even greater precision if required. This rifle is intended to be a "general purpose" rifle (as much as that is possible) or could be thought of as a "field" rifle.



Brown Rifle

Trijicon TA33R-8.

3x30, 7 oz., red chevron ranging reticle calibrated for .223 and 1.9" of eye relief.

The 3x is nice to have when reaching out a little further.



Vertical Foregrip

There is a move lately to eliminate the vertical foregrip for some shooters. Many of the 3-Gun shooters have gotten away from it.

(Start of my reply):

Xxx,


Excellent write up of what you use and why you use it. VERY well thought out!!!


I quoted only parts of your thread (use of vertical foregrips). I love vertical foregrips. That being said, within the last year or so I have found that they are not the answer for *every situation*.

For several years I ran a vertical foregrip on ALL my AR15's. Like you I shoot a lot of matches. Matches / competition is a great way to test out your gear and learn new lessons / skills about your gun, your accessories, your optic, and you as a marksman.

As you pointed out: "Form follows function" AND "the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning"

For years I looked down on 3-gunners and competition shooter as just being "gamers". Then I started to learn that there were things that I could learn from the 3 - gun / competition shooter. Many of 3-gunners / competition shooters have excellent weapons handling skills and excellent speed.

As a group, 3-gunners have to be the largest group of guys that truely believe in the "if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid" mind set.

I really started to pay attention to the "Gamers" or competion shooters at matches (the guys with no Military / Law Enforcement / Tactical Shooting background) and noticed how fast some of them were with the rifle.

I noticed that none of them used vertical foregrips and all of them gripped the forend and extended their index finger (pointing it at the target). I notice how fast their transitions from target to target were and how they could stop the gun on a dime when transitioning from one target to another.

I knew there had to be a reason these guys were not using vertial foregrips on their rifles for medium to long range rifle shooting.

I figured that I would try shooting a match without a vertical foregrip on my mid-length that had a TA-11 ACOG mounted on it to see if I shot any better without the vertical foregrip.

The monthly rifle match I shoot has targets from distances of 1 yard out to 425 yards. I IMMEDATELY noticed how much better I shot and how much more comfortable I was WITHOUT the vertical forgrip when using the 3.5x ACOG.

I found that I could drive the gun much faster, transition from target to target and stop on a dime, had an easier time steadying the gun on a barricade, was able to pull the gun in tighter to my shoulder, was more steady with the gun off hand and unsupported positions, etc.


My reply from another post on the same subject:

After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.

On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards to 425 yards.

Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).

I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.

Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail)
Example:
[img]demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?smaller=D100_5707_img.jpg[/img]

On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.

On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.


Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary.


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5775



Just a suggestion: Try the brown gun without the vertical foregrip at a couple matches (medium to longer range matches) and see if it works for you. I found on my medium to long range guns (using a magnified optic like the ACOG 3.5x) that NOT using a vertical foregrip has a LOT of advantages an no disadvantages. Your Milage May Vary




Take care and stay safe,




Semper Fi,
Jeff

[Jay Cunningham]

I have had LAV explain his reasoning for his method and I have read Pat Roger's reasoning for his method (I have a stubby grip on one of my AR's) and I understand both methodologies.

Could someone explain to me the benefit of using a magwell grip? I don't see it too often with AR's but I do see it routinely from a couple of training outfits when they shoot AK's...

[Harv]

The benefit is the same as using the VFG when you don't have one (AK comes to Mind).
Using the Magwell grip keeps you hand in a better fighting stance (squared up)..
Allows you to pull straight back on the weapon for better control,etc.

Guys were using the Magwell technique before VFG's

Remember it was the U.S.Marines that taught using your weak hand to just "support" the weapon..ala Highpower style shooting when on the Qual course. Shooting standing for score..technique works great for that ( I shoot Highpower..M1A) but for anything else it is less then optimal.

Times change and so do techniques and tactics.....

[Jay Cunningham]

The benefit is the same as using the VFG when you don't have one (AK comes to Mind).
Using the Magwell grip keeps you hand in a better fighting stance (squared up)..
Allows you to pull straight back on the weapon for better control,etc.

Guys were using the Magwell technique before VFG's

Remember it was the U.S.Marines that taught using your weak hand to just "support" the weapon..ala Highpower style shooting when on the Qual course. Shooting standing for score..technique works great for that ( I shoot Highpower..M1A) but for anything else it is less then optimal.

Times change and so do techniques and tactics.....

Understand pulling the gun into the shoulder but damn, not too much leverage on the gun to drive it with the support hand that close to the strong hand.

Anyway, the weak hand to just support the rifle is STILL being taught by some carbine instructors - ask me how I know...