Diving into bolt guns....

[a0cake]

Many of you guys are probably familiar with my background and the type of shooting I like to do. I'm a .MIL sniper and obsessed with accuracy in my rifles above all else. I've got a huge amount of trigger time on issued M24's, M2010 ESR's, M110's, and M107's. So that's my background, maybe it will affect recommendations.

On the civilian owned side, I've stuck with AR based precision rifles. I thoroughly enjoy my precision AR's, but often find myself wishing I owned a bolt gun.

I've shot GA Precision rifles before, and needless to say they are the cat's ass. But after some honest reflection sitting in front of the computer with credit card in hand, I just can't justify spending that kind of money in my current financial state.

Unfortunately, I don't have all the money in the world to spend and will have to make compromises. Improvements can be made further down the road as funds allow. That is what's great about the Remington 700.

So, I've been looking hard at Sniper Central's packages found here (I'm only interested in Remington 700 based actions, BTW):

http://www.snipercentral.com/scrifle...ml?packageid=2

There are a few reasons I'm attracted to this package (I don't care about the factory zero, scope mounting etc):

- The price is in line with what the individual components would cost separately. Getting it all at one place and at one time is convenient.

- Cerakoted from the get go. Again, any rifle can get sent out to get Cerakoted, but this is convenient.

- For $75 you can get the barrel cut and crowned to the desired length. The standard barrel is 26'' but I would have it cut down to 24''. I feel like this would make it less of a crap shoot in the accuracy department because the barrel is getting recrowned. Factory Remingtons can be hit or miss. From everything I've read the Sniper Central 'smiths are very competent and can be trusted to crown the barrels properly.

Obviously all of these things can be done separately, but having them done at one time is nice.

I do have a few questions / reservations though:

How are the Bell & Carlson Medalist stocks? Do you think the aluminum bedding block is sufficient or am I going to need to do further bedding? I know the only way to really tell is to get the rifle in hand and shoot it, but what are your opinions on this matter?

I've shot Hogue stocks and they're an absolute no-go in my book. I'm hoping the B&C stock is much more rigid than the Hogue. Being used to HS Precision stocks, will I be satisfied with the B&C?

Also, I believe the barrels are 1:12. I'd prefer a 1:10 or 1:11.25, but in all likelihood, I won't be shooting anything over 175 grains, so it may not be a huge deal.

The other option is to get a 700 AAC, ditch the Hogue stock and buy an HS Precision. Total cost will turn out to be similar in the end to wind up with a similar configuration.

Thoughts?

[orkan]

Skip the sniper central builds. You can do the same thing yourself and save a lot of money.

Were I you, for your first go around, I'd go with a Rem700 AAC. You mentioned the positives already. The only real negative isn't really a negative, but more of a preference. The 20" barrel won't really have you competitive at 1000yds. It will work with authority to 600, no problem, so long as the wind isn't severe.

Any stock you'll get will benefit from a proper bedding job. I've found B&C bedding blocks to have some variation. They aren't always true. HS Precision on the other hand seems to take more pride in their bedding blocks. That being said, I always bed them. I've turned 3moa rifles into 1/2 moa rifles by just replacing the hogue stock with an HS however. That was before bedding. Bedding didn't seem to increase accuracy, but that is mainly because I'm about a 1/2 moa shooter! I don't blame the stock for this. Bedding will make sure your zero doesn't wander around unexpectedly though, as can happen sometimes with those v-blocks.

I'd stay away from B&C if I were you, and if you like an HS Precision... then you'll LOVE a manners or mcmillan! They aren't but a couple hundred dollars more.

I wouldn't worry about coating the rifle. The remington coating is sufficient, and you'll want to re-barrel before long anyway if you plan on shooting a lot. Once you get some custom work done like getting the action trued up and a new tube torqued on... and add a bolt handle and custom recoil lug... then you can get a good coating on everything.

Sounds like you've got a basic foundation under you. Any other questions, just ask the specifics and we'll help you out.

[a0cake]

Thanks for the reply. It's looking like the 700-AAC is a good option in light of my financial constraints.

I don't mind the 20'' barrel. I've put thousands of rounds downrange through the M110, which also has a 20'' barrel. So I'm intimately familiar with the limitations and capabilities of a 20'' barrel. Heavy rounds (190+) are going to hit the transonic range before the 1K mark. I've had great success with 175 SMK's out to 1400M with the 20'' barrel. They stay supersonic slightly past 1K and are pretty good about not destabilizing once they go transonic. Anyway...

Now, as far as the cerakote goes, only reason I mention that is where I live, it's nearly impossible to keep rust from forming. Fresh Eezox weekly for guns in storage does the trick but it's a constant battle. Not a requirement by any means, but it helps. Saw it as available on the SC builds, so I figured why not.

Now, question time...Tune the factory trigger or spring for a Jewell / Timney? Stock 700 triggers are not bad, but not great IMO. Haven't had the pleasure of shooting a Jewell or a Timney. What do you think?

[orkan]

Go with timney for sure. Jewel rem700 triggers aren't robust enough to handle dirt. They are touchy, and best kept to benchrest.

Timney 510 is in my opinion the greatest trigger available for rem700's.

The factory triggers are complete shit. Trying to work with them is a complete waste of time and effort.

I buy 175SMK's in quantities of 10,000... so I too am familiar with their capabilities out of 20" and 18" barrels. I'm convinced they are the best choice for anything under 24".

[Eurodriver]

(Cake, as a disclaimer please don't assume I'm saying any of the following in order to get you to buy my rifle/scope)

I agree with pretty much everything orkan said. the Timney 510 is an amazing trigger. Easy to install, adjust, and just provides a nice feel to it. Be advised, it will not fit inside a hogue or factory Remington 700 Stock as its too wide, but it gives you a great comfortable feel.

The HS precision is a superb stock, but I didn't like the length of pull. I am 6'4 and had about 1/4-1/2" (Don't remember exactly) added along with a thicker, softer rubber butt pad. If you end up going with an HS precision setup, you'll see what I mean. Its a little shorter than what anyone taller than 5'10 would prefer. However what it lacks in length it more than makes up for in function. I bedded mine as well but it really didn't need it as far as accuracy went. I shot a 0.400" 5 shot group at 100 yards with handloads right out of the box. Where I've found it helps is when disassembling the rifle and retaining zero. I have taken my stock off and reinstalled it with no loss in zero. This isn't like removing the lower in an AR. All sorts of weird things happen when actions are mated differently to stocks. Bed it and you will not have to worry about it. All that said, if I was building a rifle from the ground up (or buying a cheap rifle with a good action but a crappy stock) I would buy a McMillan over an HS Precision, but I would not buy a McMillan to replace an HS Precision.

I originally had a 26" barrel. It was stupid long. Very unwieldy. I haven't noticed any significant performance difference after chopping half a foot off. I would strongly consider a 700AAC or something with a threaded, shorter barrel for attaching a suppressor later on.

It really depends on your price range, and of course you know that the glass matters just as much as the rifle does. (I shot that 0.400" group with a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40 at 100 yards, but after 300 yards it really went down hill)

[orkan]

I originally had a 26" barrel. It was stupid long. Very unwieldy. I haven't noticed any significant performance difference after chopping half a foot off.

You must not shoot past 600yds much. At 800, and especially 1000yds... a 20" barrel is no match for a 26. This isn't really even disputable. Consider the differences.

Out of a 26, a 175SMK can be pushed up to 2700fps pretty easily. With a 20" tube, 2550 is pretty much where most end up. Thats 150fps, and certainly will make one hell of a difference at 1000yds. Now, when you consider 155gr bullets, you can't get them fast enough out of a 20" barrel to make them any better than 175SMK's. However, out of a 26" tube... you can push them to 2950fps pretty easily, and at that speed they will absolutely DOMINATE a 175SMK @ 2550fps.

So its important to really understand what's at play before making a decision on barrel length. I've got 18, 20, 22, and 28" 308's... and I can tell you its fun to shoot the 18 and 20, but the 22 and 28 get the most use. The 18 and 20 come out when I have something to teach somebody about wind. If you want to learn the wind, a 18" 308 is truly king.

[Eurodriver]

You must not shoot past 600yds much. At 800, and especially 1000yds... a 20" barrel is no match for a 26. This isn't really even disputable. Consider the differences.

Out of a 26, a 175SMK can be pushed up to 2700fps pretty easily. With a 20" tube, 2550 is pretty much where most end up. Thats 150fps, and certainly will make one hell of a difference at 1000yds. Now, when you consider 155gr bullets, you can't get them fast enough out of a 20" barrel to make them any better than 175SMK's. However, out of a 26" tube... you can push them to 2950fps pretty easily, and at that speed they will absolutely DOMINATE a 175SMK @ 2550fps.

So its important to really understand what's at play before making a decision on barrel length. I've got 18, 20, 22, and 28" 308's... and I can tell you its fun to shoot the 18 and 20, but the 22 and 28 get the most use. The 18 and 20 come out when I have something to teach somebody about wind. If you want to learn the wind, a 18" 308 is truly king.

You're correct, there is a difference once you get out there in range but a 20", even an 18" barrel is by no means incapable of hitting targets at 800 yards with regularity. At 100 yards, my groups actually improved after I had my barrel work done. There is no free lunch.

Want a good reason to chop your 28" barrel? Try hanging an 8", 20 ounce suppressor off the end for over a yard of barrel length. I only have one bolt rifle, and out of necessity it had to be a platform of compromises. I really would have enjoyed keeping the 26" barrel for even more long range work, but in order to suppress it my rifle would be stupid long.

[orkan]

I hear what you are saying... but I don't have just one bolt gun... I have many. You said there was no noticeable performance difference between a 20" and a 26"... and that is just not true. Don't take offense, it's just something you said that is completely untrue.

I understand all too well the compromises that need to be made. I started off with 26" barrels, then went to 20... then went to 18. All because I too run suppressors on everything. I found the ultimate solution in the DTA SRS. 22" barrel with a 10" 338 rated suppressor that is still shorter than my 18" surgeon. However, if the OP cannot afford a GAP, then the DTA is definitely out of his price range.

It's just important that accurate information is given at all times, so when someone else searches and finds this thread they don't read your statement and take it as gospel. Again... do NOT take offense, it's just a simple correction.

Your statement that hits at 800 can be made with regularity is all a matter of perception. Are you shooting clay pigeons or are you shooting a full size IPSC? Even if a full size IPSC, consistent first-round hits on target in my AO cannot be accomplished regularly by anyone but the worlds top shooters. In a 15mph wind, a first round hit at 800 becomes an entirely different prospect than at 600yds when using a 20" 308. The same target, in the same conditions, with a 26" 308 using 155's is a pretty easy deal. It's all relative. I took my 18" 308 out to 1500yds on steel and scored 6 hits out of 10. Sure as hell doesn't mean that rifle is a 1500yd gun. It's a 600yd gun... because that's the max distance I feel confident in it during non-optimal conditions.

Here's an example of some of the conditions I routinely shoot in. So to say that I understand the effects of wind on 308's would be kind of an understatement.
http://youtu.be/7vlONSxbDKQ

In a 5mph wind, what you are saying may be true. However, where I live the wind blows more than it doesn't.

To some, the trade off that you made isn't worth it for them. A 20" barrel with a 8" 30 cal suppressor is still longer and more unweildy than a 26" barrel is by itself. A 20" barrel with no suppressor attached is simply a dream to work with. With a titanium suppressor, its OK, but still not what I'd call a "truck gun."

[a0cake]

For reference:

Verified data:

Ammunition: M118LR
Zero: 92M
Elevation: 3,400 FT
Temp: 30 degrees F
Humidity: ~75%

M110 1,000M Drop: 13.5 MILS
M110 1,000M Full Value 10MPH: 2.8 MILS

M24 1,000M Drop: 12 MILS
M24 1,000M Full Value 10MPH: 2.5 MILS

I'm not tracking on there being a huge difference as far as the wind goes, either on paper or in practice.

There is certainly an advantage to the extra 4 inches of barrel, but for most applications training and familiarity can close the gap.

Not saying anything you guys don't already know, but it's just a matter of weighing external ballistic performance against convenience of carry.

[a0cake]

Here's an example of some of the conditions I routinely shoot in. So to say that I understand the effects of wind on 308's would be kind of an understatement.
http://youtu.be/7vlONSxbDKQ

Great video! Looks like a hell of a lot of fun. I would love to shoot out there and learn a few things from you about beating the wind.

You have wind problems, I have elevation problems. LOL