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My log shows 5,800 fired by me and I lent it out twice to guys who had a parts failure on their AR's at classes and it seen another 960rds fired but them.
Of these rounds 4300rds were Russian Wolf and Tulammo .223 55gr and the remainder was a 5.56 mix of M-193 and M-855.
The rife had seven failures to feed which was traced to two damaged magazines, twenty four failures to fire which was a bad 500rd lot of Tulammo and nine failures to extract were the extractor ripped through the rim on some more Tulammo. (I no longer will buy Tulammo .223 but the 7.62x39 is still GTG)
Gun related failures so far have been one were a firing pin tip broke and had to be replaced.
If I could find another A/A piston upper at the same price I paid for this one I would add another if not two for future builds.
We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts.
Purely from a shooter's perspective, I have not shot a piston AR that has the same smooth recoil impulse as a quality DI AR. Period. Ever. In fact, it's not even close.
If somebody is going to train for true proficiency and minimizing shot-to-shot splits, then a DI AR is STILL the only way to go.
My BCM 14.5" middy w/ Vltor A5 recoil system and LMT e-carrier shoots smoother than most DI AR's....and it made the last piston AR I shot (an AA carbine gas system) feel like I was shooting an AK74.
That's enough for me right there....a "better" gun that has a more pronounced, sharper recoil impulse and more overall gun movement.....and I've shot every major brand of piston AR to include: CMMG, Bushmaster, POF, LWRC, Osprey, Adams Arms, & Stag.
I'll keep my 100%-reliable-after-shooting-1200-rounds-with-no-lube-added BCM, thank you very much. And my smoother recoil impulse. And my reduced muzzle rise....and my reduced overall gun movement.
"That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892
"The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."
Had an Adams Arms Tactical Elite upper. Ran right at 6500 rounds through it. Had the rod break within the 1st 500 rounds. They replaced the rod, never had an issue after that. Gave the upper to my Son-in-Law when he returned from Afghanistan. I believe he has 1500+ rounds without issue.
Ok, I'll play.
1. Can you quantify the split differences? .01? .02? Will the split differences matter?
2. What is the time of your first shot with the different systems? That is, after all, the most important time to be concerned with in my opinion.
3. What is the gun movement you are talking about? Increased muzzle rise; at what distance and cadence will that start to matter? Can you quantify where/when increased muzzle rise matters?
4. 1200 rounds without lube? I then ask what the point is. This whole doesn't need lube thing has gotten way out of hand. I wonder how it started. I always use lube on my gun.
I shoot 1.5-1.6 sec bill drills with my HK416, from 7 yards. I shoot 1.6-1.7 sec 2x2x2 drills. Usually my first shot is in the 0.6-08 sec range at 5-7 meters, and about 1 sec at 20 meters. When shooting half and half drills, I usually get 3 shots off in the first second at 5 meters. I shoot El Prez drills at just over 8 secs. With all good hits. Out to 300-350 meters I have a high probability of a first round hit on torso size stationary target.
All in full gear; helmet, LBE etc.
Many guys here would probably smoke me though
My point is still this; basically, the arguments listed here are mostly about minutia. I think the supposed negtives in an op-rod system are highly exaggerated when it comes to shooting the gun, and that shooter skill and technique matter more than the operating mechanism in an AR platform.
I don't think that my times are going to miraculously get a whole lot better if I started shooting a DI gun. I would probably see more improvements if I shot more. I know that I can shoot faster if I would just start to accept groups that are a tiny bit bigger. My target to target splits would be closer to my shot to shot splits if I shot more target transition drills.
Last edited by Arctic1; 05-11-13 at 19:28.
It's not about surviving, it's about winning!
Game on.
1) The split times will vary based on distance to the target. I.e. you can shoot faster at a target that is closer to you. I use my buddy's shot timer, so I don't have exact split times for you right now. FASTER IS FASTER. I take any tenth or hundredth of a second in a gunfight. I'm not sure how much (if any) time I'll be given by my adversary so every little bit helps. It's why practice my draw so much for my G21 service handgun.
2) Since the piston guns I have shot were noticeably more front heavy than my BCM, DI wins here as well for me. Again, I don't have exact splits for you right now. Back to rule #1: Faster is Faster.
3) I can dream up about a billion different gun fight situations where overall gun movement, smoothness of recoil impulse, and muzzle rise have an effect on the outcome of the fight. Here are some general examples: shooting without a rest (i.e. standing/kneeling) and shooting from improvised field positions (reduced leverage to drive the gun). This encompasses the vast majority of the positions I would utilize in order to maximize my use of cover as an LEO. Moving quickly and snap shooting....maybe while moving as well.
You are a good shooter and I have watched your videos so I know you're not speaking from ego. However, what happens when I must punch through cover (i.e. a vehicle) to kill an armed adversary at 50+ yards while I'm standing? This is the exact scenario that I could face. My pistol is my reactionary weapon and is most likely to be used at short distances while on patrol. My carbine gets deployed when I have had at least a second or two to run to my trunk and snatch my bag while I run to cover/staging."
Making multiple, effective hits on a man sized target from 50 yards with a greatly elevated heartrate, while standing or moving, and while my target may or may not be moving, I'll take as little gun movement as possible during the firing cycle since I'll be imparting plenty of my own gun movement due to the circumstances.I had my dot on a crazy guy's chest/forehead while he was wearing a flak vest and holding a knife. As part of the contact team who was moving toward him, I might have had to take a shot at any point in time. A lighter gun makes it easier to hold on target and faster to present to the target (I'm a 5'10", 240lb weightlifter...I'm not lacking in the strength department).
I spend most of my time shooting at 15 yards and out. My splits at 15 are typically in the 1.7-1.9 range. If I practiced more, I'm sure I could be faster as well. I agree on that and think it goes without saying.
To confront your questions at their most basic level: when would I want less muzzle control in rapid fire, more muzzle movement, more gun movement, and a sharper recoil impulse (without an increase in terminal performance, i.e.e a step up in caliber)?
The answer to those questions would be: never, never, never, and never.
The fact is, you are more likely to win in a gunfight when your gun shoots smoother, has less muzzle movement, and less overall gun movement.
EDIT: I'll also add that when I notice a marked increase in muzzle and gun movement, I can only imagine how much more movement there would be for a smaller statured individual, much less for my 5'3" 120lb wife.
Last edited by BufordTJustice; 05-11-13 at 20:42.
"That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892
"The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."
Also, Arctic1, you're using an HK416 IIRC. That's got a heavier buffer, heavier action spring, and a gun that was designed to be the best piston system that could be fit in the AR size envelope.
It's been a long time since I shot one, and I did not A-B it with my own carbine...but I recall it having a smoother recoil impulse than most piston guns I've shot. Kudos to HK and to you for being able to shoot one. But, seeing that only LE agencies can buy actual HK 416's in the US right now, that's a moot point for a US citizen.
"That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892
"The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."
Honestly I think my 16" A/A Middy balances just as nicely when compared to my 16" DI Middy with identical furniture and optics.
As to recoil /muzzle rise I use a Springco White with H-1 buffers in both and really don't have any issues time or accuracy wise during drills. Now everyone else's results may vary using different piston set-ups but for me its a non issue either way I go.
We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts.
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