How to rapid fire

[ruchik]

I have a question regarding rapid firing. Is one supposed to fire, wait until the front sight comes back into focus, then fire again? Or does one rely on proper grip and muscle memory to keep the gun coming back to the same spot after firing? Combination of both? I ask because at the range, no matter how hard I focus, I can't pick up the front sight and center it in the rear sight again after firing until about a second later. This is with the proper thumbs forward grip, arms straight out, knees slightly bent, squared to target, etc. Try as I might, I just can't seem to speed up my firing cadence past one round every 1-2 seconds. With double taps (or controlled pair, or two well-aimed shots, whatever one wants to call it), my second shot seems a lot more like educated guesswork than a well-aimed shot.

[sboza]

It really would benefit you to take an introductory class through a reputable instructor. And to answer your first question, yes; for marksmanship training, front sight focus and you should have an acceptable sight picture for every shot fired. Stance and grip are essentially the two fundamentals which the shooter uses to control recoil. With these squared away, you will find yourself back on target with an acceptable sight picture almost effortlessly. In your case, grip seems to be the culprit. Proper grip has been described in many threads on this forum so I am not going to get into that but placing your thumbs forward is not enough to form a proper grip, you have to know where to put pressure and where pressure can hamper follow through.

My GUESS would be that you are not using your support grip to provide enough lateral pressure and so have significant sight wobble (side to side). An overly loose grip in general can cause the gun to flip and wobble excessively. A professional can watch you shoot and diagnose your issue quickly.

Make sure you are maintaining front sight focus throughout your sequence. Now, after your first shot, observe what your front sight is doing. Is it going up and down? Up and to the left? All over the place? Do this and report the results back here.

Finally don't get too hung up on rapid fire, it seems like you need to focus on your fundamentals. Good on you for recognizing that something isn't right if it is taking you so long to reattain an acceptable sight picture. Most folks just go full auto putting holes in the ceiling and thinking they're all badass because they can pull the trigger quickly.

P.S. I'm in a bit of a hurry, sorry for the rushed post.

[Failure2Stop]

It's distance and skill related.
If I am very close, I do not need to have a front sight focus.
As distance increases the necessity to focus on and fully align the sights will increase.
Grip and stance will permit the shooter to fire accurate shots faster.
At the distances at which you need to see sight alignment, you really need to be seeing it for every shot, otherwise, you are simply hoping/guessing/praying that the subsequent shots will land where you need them.
For more helpful information I need to know what size target you are trying to hit and how far away you are.

In the following video I am shooting at a 3x5 index card for the first two shots and an 8" circle for the last 4 at 7 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AppTRUuYaww

It ain't a great run, I'm not particularly proud of it, but it was handy.

[YVK]

I have a question regarding rapid firing. Is one supposed to fire, wait until the front sight comes back yes into focus not necessarily,"focus" means different things depending on target size and required accuracy, then fire again? Or does one rely on proper grip and muscle memory to keep the gun coming back to the same spot after firing Absolutely, but you still need to verify sight picture I can't pick up the front sight and center it in the rear sight again after firing until about a second later. This solely depends on the size of target, distance to it and accuracy demand. I can pull 0.42 sec split on 3x5 card at 7 yards, but guaranteed split time (meaning 100% hit guarantee) is 0.73 sec. You don't always need a perfect picture. This is with the proper thumbs forward grip, arms straight out, knees slightly bent, squared to target, etc. Unless somebody very competent verified that you're doing it right, you only think it is proper; in fact, it may or may not be.Try as I might, I just can't seem to speed up my firing cadence past one round every 1-2 seconds. Cadence is a bad thing, IMO. Your sight picture should dictate when you press the trigger, not arbitrarily chosen pace..

An excellent drill is called a Circle Drill. You don't have to use circle, btw, but there has to be a well visible upper border of a target. You start with pistol pointed at the center, break the shot, keep watching your sight and as soon as you see it cross back that upper edge of your target, squeeze your next shot off. The string is 5 shots. Try to accelerate on your next sequence, but always let your front sight to dictate when to shoot next. The idea is to learn how to see your earliest opportunity to hit your target rather than wait for a perfectly centered sight picture, something that in shooting circles is cliched under "see what you need to see" to make your shot.

[sboza]

Agreed with f2s. I suggested front sight focus and proper sight alignment for you (OP) because I assume that you are at the fundamentals of marksmanship stage. I do believe that once you master the basics, you do NOT need to become an expert, you may learn shooting from retention and the principals of point shooting. As f2s makes clear however, the situation will dictate the tactics you choose.

For now, get into a class and get your fundamentals down.

[Axcelea]

Might have to work on trigger follow through, side to side pressure, using first digit properly, push-pull, and all those good things that help with recoil control and seemingly make the sight go back on target when done correctly.

As others have said though, best have an expert observe you such as some formal training so that they can see what your doing right and what your doing wrong.

[Surf]

In the following video I am shooting at a 3x5 index card for the first two shots and an 8" circle for the last 4 at 7 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AppTRUuYaww

That damn drill of Todd's is maddening isn't it. lol. Nice to see some video's. I now officially have 3 youtube subscriptions.

I would love to try out perhaps a condensed version of the Fleischwolf. Looks a bit tiring for us older, fat errr...heavy set guys.

[P2000]

When practicing try to increase speed, but do not sacrifice accuracy. The speed will come slowly. Good instruction will be worth it also.

[Surf]

For the OP, just to add to what has been mentioned above, I will also agree that skill, distance and target size all play big roles. Also the more neutral that we can maintain our platform and our grip with a good natural point of aim, the weapon will want to return to the same spot each time, which makes rapid fire much easier no matter the type of sight picture that we are choosing to use.

Understanding cadence comes under shooter skill and can be a big plus, but I will leave it at that as you should work more on fundamentals with confirmation of sight picture and sight alignment with making sure that you have a more correct and neutral grip / shooting platform. If you can have a more natural point of aim so that the sights return to the same place each and every time, you will be able to more efficiently and in a more deliberate manner reconfirm your proper sight picture and sight alignment between each shot. With the sights returning consistently to the same position your speeds will increase with training time. Slow is smooth and smooth becomes fast.

As F2S mentions I use similar techniques while shooting at speed. I will also add a video to illustrate what type of sighting that can be used and the effectiveness of it. In the below video, I am using flash front sight type of aiming. Basically I am watching the front sight and I am not really concerned about the rear sight and its relationship to the front sight. Remember my grip / shooting platform is neutral with a good natural point of aim so at these type of distances I only need to watch the front sight. The target is a B27 paster with an 8 ring that is 12"w x 18" (torso sized), a 9 ring that is 8"w x 12"h (roughly IPSC A zone), a 10 ring that is 4"w x 6"h and an X ring. At this distance and speeds with a repeatable and neutral grip / platform and this type of sighting I get all hits within the 9 ring and a good majority in the 10 ring. However the spread between the 2 shots is generally very small. Your spread between shots will really show the effectiveness of the neutral grip and natural point of aim where the weapon wants to return to the same spot with consistency and recoil management. I watch the front sight and when it hits the bottom of the recoil phase (which the amount of recoil is minimized by the grip / stance) I am pulling trigger. This sight bounce occurs almost as fast as I can even physically pull the trigger.

The Triple Nickel Drill

[wahoo95]

Oustide of proper mechanics and such, I found that a less clutered sight picture increased my speed. I like plain rear sights matched up with white dots up front. That simple change allowed my eyes to better track my front sight as I focus on my target without the clutter of dots on the rear sight.

My brain would constantly try to align them so I took them out of the equation. Not saying that works for everyone, just sharing my experience.