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Thread: I dont want to hear "more expensive"

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmp45 View Post
    I find it odd you keep kicking this. I didn't complain about my m&p, never said I wasn't happy with it. Has nothing to with what others think, I could care less. Just pointed out that I could have done better for the cost with a BCM or Colt. Grant's post above pretty much sums it up. It's not that complicated.

    Your new here, after you've been here for awhile you'll recognize the members on this forum by the most part are seasoned and contribute valuable dialog worth taking note.
    Sounds good. I apparently misinterpreted your post in the first place.

    And then when you responded correcting my "POS" statement, I waxed verbose in clarifying my original post. Cheers. I get what you were saying now, and I'm pretty sure everybody gets what my point was. We probably all more-or-less agree, and are now just arguing semantics, or past each other, entirely.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench View Post
    Nope, firsthand. I've personally been standing there when a colt doubled on the range, and I've had one brought to me to have looked at, because it had the same problem.



    This was during the Janet Reno era. You know, Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. They weren't too concerned about "intent". Pretty sure the guy won in court, but not before spending a pretty penny on attorney's fees.



    I think you know what a boutique brand is. Noveske, Vltor, POF, etc.



    Sure, but again, if you have to learn from the internet that you're not supposed to be satisfied with the rifle, then that speaks well for the rifle. They can all break. S&W has a warranty too, you know... You seem to be implying that they do not.




    I didn't say they're all good. I said that there's nothing wrong with his S&W, if there's nothing wrong with his S&W.

    His comment indicated that he would have otherwise been happy with his purchase, if not for the internet telling him he shouldn't be; and I find that a little absurd, and quite possibly a sad reflection of the attitudes of the forum.

    I'm the new kid in this forum, but based on what I've seen so far, a lot of what goes on here seems to be a big circle jerk; and, as one person put it, 'a lot of sniffing of one another's farts'.

    A fighting AR that you would bet your life on (which is what we are discussing here) is judged by the quality of its parts and how it is assembled. In order to judge an AR, we have to follow a standard. That standard is the TDP. Only two companies have the official document. They are Colt and FNH.

    In the TDP, standards/specs are defined. AR manufacturers either follow them or they do not.

    All AR's run sitting in the safe or in the trunk. AR's are that are run hard in carbine schools usually show you the difference between a gun built with quality parts and assembled properly and ones that are not. Does this mean that an Oly AR cannot be reliable? Nope. The odds are against you though (which is what most are talking about here).

    For me personally, I will use a firearm to defend myself and the lives of my loved ones. This means that I will be betting my life on its reliability. Now you can bet YOUR LIFE on a gun that does not meet the basic standard for a fighting gun (TDP), but please do not tell the rest of us that they are "good enough."




    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 12-05-11 at 22:26.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    A fighting AR that you would bet your life on (which is what we are discussing here) is judged by the quality of its parts and how it is assembled. In order to judge an AR, we have to follow a standard. That standard is the TDP. Only two companies have the official document. They are Colt and FNH.

    In the TDP, standards/specs are defined. AR manufacturers either follow them or they do not.

    All AR's run sitting in the safe or in the trunk. AR's are that are run hard in carbine schools usually show you the difference between a gun built with quality parts and assembled properly and ones that are not. Does this mean that an Oly AR cannot be reliable? Nope. The odds are against you though (which is what most are talking about here).

    For me personally, I will use a firearm to defend myself and the lives of my loved ones. This means that I will be betting my life on its reliability. Now you can bet YOUR LIFE on a gun that does not meet the basic standard for a fighting gun (TDP), but please do not tell the rest of us that they are "good enough."




    C4
    99% of AR-15 owners will NEVER bet their life on an AR. And the ones who do, are probably the least likely to utter the phrase, "bet my life on ___" and most of them don't have a choice as to what they bet their lives on anyway. It's issued by their unit/dept.

    Face it, the AR-15 is a terrible home defense weapon. Period. It's a combat weapon. You're not going to be defending your family from an intruder from 50+ yards away, let alone 500 yards.

    If you want to "bet your life" on a reliable weapon for home defense, get a 12-Gauge pump-action shotgun. It's not terribly tacticool, I know. Major loss of points.

    If you're prepping for the Zombie Apocalypse, by all means, get a Vltor.

    But, at the end of the day, we all know that those cans and paper aren't going to be shooting back, at the majority of people on the internet who insist that they'll never 'bet their lives' on anything but a [insert brand of the month here].

  4. #94
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    I am not going to play word games with you. You like to take things and selective read and respond. I never said that a Colt can't double.

    You made it sound as if it was a common occurrence and I doubt that you or anyone else can prove that.

    I am well aware of the "Janet Reno" era and it doesn't matter who is in charge. The law is the law and standards of evidence, etc... don't change.

    The whole story itself and how you explained it makes no sense. Again, I would love to see a reliable source for this so-called case.

    It's called information sharing. M4Carbine is about peoepl specifically interested in the M4/M16 platform sharing their enthusiasm and experience.

    IMO opinion you are simply trolling here and attempting to stir the shit pot. I suggest that you re-read the Mission Statement and take some time to read more and post less.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrench View Post
    Nope, firsthand. I've personally been standing there when a colt doubled on the range, and I've had one brought to me to have looked at, because it had the same problem.



    This was during the Janet Reno era. You know, Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. They weren't too concerned about "intent". Pretty sure the guy won in court, but not before spending a pretty penny on attorney's fees.



    I think you know what a boutique brand is. Noveske, Vltor, POF, etc.



    Sure, but again, if you have to learn from the internet that you're not supposed to be satisfied with the rifle, then that speaks well for the rifle. They can all break. S&W has a warranty too, you know... You seem to be implying that they do not.




    I didn't say they're all good. I said that there's nothing wrong with his S&W, if there's nothing wrong with his S&W.

    His comment indicated that he would have otherwise been happy with his purchase, if not for the internet telling him he shouldn't be; and I find that a little absurd, and quite possibly a sad reflection of the attitudes of the forum.

    I'm the new kid in this forum, but based on what I've seen so far, a lot of what goes on here seems to be a big circle jerk; and, as one person put it, 'a lot of sniffing of one another's farts'.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

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  5. #95
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    I won't gang up on anybody... But I will say is this.

    My first AR purchase was an anniversary edition Bushmaster. It was a POS. 2 fte's during it's use with cheap gunshow ammo. All in all, you could tell it was a cheap ass gun. So I unloaded it for $300 less than I paid after someone begged me for it. It's one of the worst purchases I've ever made and it pisses me off to this day. There are plenty of ppl who would be happy with it, in fact the man who currently owns it is "happy" with it. I feel like a dick, b/c he doesn't know any better. In the end, it's a gun that is not well built when compared to other "quality" ar makers. That gun's price tag was $1500 and nobody should have been dumb enough to pay that much.

    Unfortunately, I was.

    If I was aware that there were better options, I would have pursued them. There is so much misinformation and marketing BS that clouds a newbies judgement with AR's that it hard to make a good decision unless someone tells you different. This site helps out with that. It also will call ppl out on BS and engage in open and sometimes VERY honest conversation.

    Grant summed it up in saying that there are ppl on this forum that share knowledge. Knowledge that takes a lot of experience and exposure to gain. I appreciate it and the overwhelming majority of the people that visit this site appreciate it.

  6. #96
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    This says it all right here and affirms that you have no clue what you are talking about. I also don't understand why you keep mentioning Vltor since they just recently got into the complete AR market.

    I would love to hear your explanation as to why the AR is a terrible home defense weapon and why the shotgun is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by wrench View Post
    99% of AR-15 owners will NEVER bet their life on an AR. And the ones who do, are probably the least likely to utter the phrase, "bet my life on ___" and most of them don't have a choice as to what they bet their lives on anyway. It's issued by their unit/dept.

    Face it, the AR-15 is a terrible home defense weapon. Period. It's a combat weapon. You're not going to be defending your family from an intruder from 50+ yards away, let alone 500 yards.

    If you want to "bet your life" on a reliable weapon for home defense, get a 12-Gauge pump-action shotgun. It's not terribly tacticool, I know. Major loss of points.

    If you're prepping for the Zombie Apocalypse, by all means, get a Vltor.

    But, at the end of the day, we all know that those cans and paper aren't going to be shooting back, at the majority of people on the internet who insist that they'll never 'bet their lives' on anything but a [insert brand of the month here].



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    As a S&W LE Distributor, let me say that the S&W M&P line is not crap and would take them over such brands as RRA, BM, DPMS, Oly, etc.

    With that said, it does NOT hold a candle to BCM, DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT and Colt.

    Even with holding the gun in their hands and shooting it, people have no idea what makes a quality AR and what does not. This is where a forum like M4C comes into play. You have people that have WAY more knowledge than the common shooter and share it.



    C4
    that was my experience. i picked up my bushmaster in feb '08 immediately after voting in my party primary....I really over paid for it. I then subsequently found M4C and have replaced the buffer, BCG, and staked the castle nut. I know that it isnt as good as the others, but at least some of the failure points are covered. My next carbine will be a BCM!
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing lunch, Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote.

  8. #98
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    Seriously I don't get why it's even a debate. You guys can get a genuine Colt 6290 for less than 950$. Even at 1100$ it would still be the best bang for the buck.

    I buy Noveske because it's about the same price up here than Colt/DD/BCM. But if I was living in America, in a non-nfa state and wanted a fighting rifle I'd buy a 6290. Heck, I'd probably buy more than one at this price just for spare parts.

    I understand buying from KAC, Noveske, VLTOR, BCM and DD. They're all top tier and we're lucky to have such a good choice in terms of mounts, freefloat tubes and barrels. Remember the 2000 era where all you could get was the ARMS SIR rail, 1/9 twist HBAR barrels and the only "quality" brands were ABC-R? I don't want to go back.

    I don't get why people go in a store a get a Bushmaster for 850$ or RRA for 799$ when you can have "the reference" for less than 200$ more. You're not buying rims for your car, your buying a rifle that might save your or your loved ones life!

    It doesn't mean the Colt is perfect or that Colt never makes a lemon, it's just that dollar for dollar, you get the most out of your money with a 6290 rather than a 650$DPMS with 300$ of crap attached to it.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by st1650 View Post
    Seriously I don't get why it's even a debate. You guys can get a genuine Colt 6290 for less than 950$. Even at 1100$ it would still be the best bang for the buck.

    I buy Noveske because it's about the same price up here than Colt/DD/BCM. But if I was living in America, in a non-nfa state and wanted a fighting rifle I'd buy a 6290. Heck, I'd probably buy more than one at this price just for spare parts.

    I understand buying from KAC, Noveske, VLTOR, BCM and DD. They're all top tier and we're lucky to have such a good choice in terms of mounts, freefloat tubes and barrels. Remember the 2000 era where all you could get was the ARMS SIR rail, 1/9 twist HBAR barrels and the only "quality" brands were ABC-R? I don't want to go back.

    I don't get why people go in a store a get a Bushmaster for 850$ or RRA for 799$ when you can have "the reference" for less than 200$ more. You're not buying rims for your car, your buying a rifle that might save your or your loved ones life!

    It doesn't mean the Colt is perfect or that Colt never makes a lemon, it's just that dollar for dollar, you get the most out of your money with a 6290 rather than a 650$DPMS with 300$ of crap attached to it.
    sadly, i see 6920s on tables at the gun show CHEAPER!!!!! than a bushmaster and RRA! Gander was running their black friday ad with teh craptacular carbon-15. my friend called and asked if he should by it. I immediately said, "no, get the 6920 at the gun show for nine bills!"....
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing lunch, Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This says it all right here and affirms that you have no clue what you are talking about. I also don't understand why you keep mentioning Vltor since they just recently got into the complete AR market.
    Because the Vltor is $2500, and it's the brand of the week. Nothing against them personally, they're nice guns. Too nice, almost. Again, nothing against them personally. I spoke with them at SHOT Show. Nice folks.

    I would love to hear your explanation as to why the AR is a terrible home defense weapon and why the shotgun is better.
    For starters, the .223 is a tiny round that will grossly over-penetrate, and leave a very tiny hole. The idea behind a home defense weapon is to stop whatever/whoever is threatening you on the spot.

    So you have two options. A single .22 cal projectile delivered on target per trigger pull, or you can deliver nine .33 caliber projectiles in a nice even spread pattern, per pull of the trigger. That's over 13 times the ventilation real-estate that you just put in the thoracic cavity of your target, and increases your odds of striking a vital organ by the same 13 fold (otherwise ignoring the law of averages).

    So do you still pick that single .22 cal bullet?

    Nah, of course you do. You probably make all headshots, eh?

    Well, we can't all be ninjas...
    Last edited by wrench; 12-05-11 at 23:14.

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