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Thread: I dont want to hear "more expensive"

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Please spend some time in the ballistics forum and learn more about what current bullets are available and what they do.

    With that said, the ugly truth is that if you cannot hit the bad guy in a vital zone, then it really doesn't matter if you use a 5.56 or 7.62. Only hits count and since you have never had any real firearms training, then you most likely aren't going to hit anything.



    C4
    BOOM....there it is. I couldn't agree more.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  2. #122
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    There is one reason to use a shotgun for home defense. Namely, to prevent stray rounds from penetrating your neighbor's house/apartment. When I used to live on an isolated mountain ranch my house gun was an AR. But now that I live in a suburban subdivision with close neighbors all around I've switched to a shotgun loaded with shallow penetrating #4 buck.

    Remember that every round that goes astray has a lawyer's name on it, and it's not your lawyer.

  3. #123
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    Looking at these expansion profiles I don't believe the shotgun is any safer than 556 in terms of overpenetration.

    #4 buckshot


  4. #124
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    With a shotgun, as with an AR, you can go for deep or shallow penetration depending on what ammo you choose. Trouble is I don't trust frangible 223/5.56 ammo to do the job on BG's. Maybe it will, maybe not. But I know for sure #4 buck will, indoors and up close.

    I think it all depends on your location and your priorities. Down here on the border there are home invasions all the time, usually involving 3-10 armed BG's that come in SWAT team fast, which is why I want a one shot man-stopper-load that isn't likely to kill my neighbors if I miss.

    Bear in mind I'm not supporting Wrench's posts, just pointing out that a short shotgun is fast & deadly up close, and not likely to penetrate exterior walls.
    Last edited by SIMBA-LEE; 12-06-11 at 15:39.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIMBA-LEE View Post
    With a shotgun, as with an AR, you can go for deep or shallow penetration depending on what ammo you choose. Trouble is I don't trust frangible 223/5.56 ammo to do the job on BG's. Maybe it will, maybe not. But I know for sure #4 buck will, indoors and up close.

    I think it all depends on your location and your priorities. Down here on the border there are home invasions all the time, usually involving 3-10 armed BG's that come in SWAT team fast, which is why I want a one shot man-stopper-load that isn't likely to kill my neighbors if I miss.

    Bear in mind I'm not supporting Wrench's posts, just pointing out that a short shotgun is fast & deadly up close, and not likely to penetrate exterior walls.
    The fact that you can even consider 223/5.56 to 'kill your neighbors' if you miss shows how little you know about the ballistics of the round. I'd suggest reading some of the threads recommended above.

  6. #126
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    From the Doc's keyboard:

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR
    In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR
    Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons.
    So determine your likely situation and choose the appropriate gear. It's not that difficult.
    Last edited by ASH556; 12-06-11 at 15:53.
    Semper Paratus Certified AR15 Armorer

  7. #127
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    So...at the end of 7 pages, which has ended with another fight over who perceives themselves to be "more" correct...we are left with the greatest phrase ever mentioned...Caveat Emptor. Research before you buy. The better deal...or value, may indeed be found with a couple more bucks added to the pile. On the other side, not every Bushy, DPMS, or whatever rifle is complete garbage, but you may run a greater chance of a failure with one of those. Be happy with your purchase, but take the advice that you might not have bought the best there is. At least you sought out knowledge, which is a damn sight better than many people I know. Go to the range, shoot a friends rifle, ask questions and surf the internet. Be forewarned, it's a scary place where emotions, opinions, knowledge (both real and imagined) hover around like flies on shit. Let this thread die. The topic left the path of discussion long ago. Best part is, in a week or two this will all start again....and again.....and again

  8. #128
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    With the above post I'll add this, in '08 BEFORE the election and before I found this forum I was the one that got a DPMS AP-4 8000 + rds latter and no issues I'l keep beating the piss out this AR, it is a AR and a good way to understand the platform. I'm saving up for a BMC/Colt but the DPMS has been a great learning tool, they ain't all bad.

    Guys, give the newbies a little break and encourage them to shoot & learn their DPMS/OLY/RRA/BM AR-15 and how to fix their issues, they will learn after repeated problems and reading on here. I got lucky on mine.

    Keep shooting!
    Last edited by M-4VA; 12-06-11 at 16:33.
    "LIVE FREE OR DIE"

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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by st1650 View Post

    Thats pretty cool

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench View Post
    For what it's worth, I never said that it's not a great military/fighting weapon. For ranges that are going to exceed 100', I'll take the AR. But home defense is up-close and personal, and it's hard to beat 12-gauge 00 buckshot.

    I know, I know, as I said before, it's not as tacticool as the AR, so it loses points with the mall-ninja crowd; but it's pretty devastating at personal-defense ranges.

    Now, if you're going to be fighting an urban war (or zombies), then the AR is great for that. It doesn't change the fact that 99% of personally-owned ARs are nothing more than range toys.

    Disagree all you want. I know you will... I'm sure you're an 'operator', who gets kills (headshots, no less), daily. It's amazing how many you meet on the internet.
    You sir, are being deliberately provocative. While I clearly understand that you have come here to poke the badger with a stick from an assumed higher moral ground, I am going to respond.

    First, no firearm is a "range toy". Treating any firearm as a toy violates the first rule of safety- All firearms are loaded. Begin thinking of any firearm as a toy means you will not take it seriously. After all, it's not a serious weapon. But the fact is, any firearm will kill you, or another, just as dead as any serious weapon of war. All firearms are lethal. You cannot change the setting of a firearm from "Dead" to "Only Mostly Dead". Only fools allow themselves to think of any firearm as merely a toy.

    Picking a firearm that is less than reliable because you will never have to trust your life to it is a lie. Even though it will only be used at the range to punch paper, slaughter cans, break clay pigeons or stop dirt clods dead in their tracks, you trust your life and your safety to it with every shot. Death and injury is but a split case away. More unsafe firearms handling occurs attempting to clear a malfunction than any other time. I know as I have done it myself. (Now, anytime I have a malfunction, the first thing I do is stop, take a breath and plan every move I will make to clear it just to avoid being unsafe). More shooters are injured from firearms that are less than reliable because "It's not like I'm trusting my life to it." Lying to yourself is delusional.

    As an Outdoorsman, everything I take with me is a survival tool. If I take my single shot 22 with me to hunt small game, I am trusting my life to it and everything I carry with me down to my Old Timer pocket knife. If I get caught in a storm or become injured or lost or run into someone wanting to live out their Deliverance fantasies, all I have at that moment is what I have and it better work. Like 4 wheel drive. While most 4x4s spend only 10% of their time offroad, when they are offroad, that 4x4 system becomes a thousand times more important than a cushy ride is on the highway. A lack of preparation is delusional and a foolish way to die.

    (While I'm on my soap box, the AR isn't a gun. In general terms, it's a firearm or weapon and specifically it's a rifle. Not a gun. It's not a smoothbore, it's not an artillery piece. Just like a magazine isn't a clip and a 38 snubnosed revolver isn't a Saturday Night N*town Special. Just wanted to get that off my chest.)

    I believe in teamwork. No man is an island. But it's wrong for me to expect my team-mates to pick up the slack because I am poorly prepared. It's wrong to threaten the safety of others because I have to constantly clear malfunctions, it's wrong to risk injury or death because my firearm, a "range toy" might kaboom. It's wrong to die on a mountain because the blade of my pocket knife broke, the fire-starter kit wouldn't light or my rifle malfunctioned after I broke an arm. Not only is it wrong, but pretty damned foolish
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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