Magpul Dynamics- The Art of the Precision Rifle

[Dozer]

I am not a long distance shooter so I will not speculate. The only distance shooting I did was in the Corps with open sights.

Again, none here have watched the DVDs so speculating to the techniques used only illustrates my point.

[Raven Armament]

Oh, sweet! Been waiting for this to come out for a long time. Starting to look into getting a setup for long range and learn the basics. This video looks like it will get me on the right track.

[Dano5326]

Anyone that speaks in absolutes is happily limited is experience. Dogmatic methodologies are for amateurs. The comfort zone is the kill zone.

LE, benchresters, hobby shooters, often can not think in a 360 degree orb of responsibility or the of shooting positions required in military operations in varied terrain. When patrolling down the side of a ridge, PKMs start flogging you from the next ridge, the usual 1st barrage of RPG's come in and your hoping not to hear 82mm mortars whistle in... one does not prone out with ass above head,square up to the perceived tgt, exposing nearly all ones body, & 6-7" of head above the line O bore... to try recreate the ideal body position learned on one way square ranges. You need to reduce the enemy from a cover position appropriate to the threat, w/o creating a signature that garners ballistic attention.

We used to giggle a little at the opposition combatants that fully exposed their head and upper body, fully over line o bore, showing above rooftops or rocky precipices. InShallah, be that guy.

If you can't shoot a canted rifle your understanding of the math of your zero, bore offset, optics reticle and external ballistics of your cartridge is limited. And, if you fully realize the effects of even subtle canting, your much more likely to recognize mistakes often attributed to "wind"

If one doesn't have the time to invest or maintain a higher skillset, at least you know your limitations. 99.9% of drivers can't left foot brake, trail brake, or brake drift.. required race winning techniques. Mocking what your not capable of or don't understand... helps keep the world flat.

[MaceWindu]

I don't post often, but Dano5326, just dropped the LOGIC BOMB. BOOM...

Mace

[d90king]

This is the first MP DVD that I have had interest in. For those of you that think that Tod H can't teach you something about long range shooting you are complete morons. Period. Stick to your bench rest shooting (and try not to fall asleep) while the rest of us continue to try and learn. If you notice (oh wait you haven't actually seen what you are bitching about) when they are using those unconventional shooting positions that they are putting hits on target.... Isn't that all that matters?

I was also a big believer of "taking the best shot that I could and didn't care about a few extra inches being exposed" ... Then I tried clearing a structure at USTC and learned pretty quick that those few inches DO matter.

One last tid bit... Try and learn professional courtesy. This thread is in MP's industry forum so STFU or take your post over to ARF where you will fit in nicely.

[rickp]

Anyone that speaks in absolutes is happily limited is experience. Dogmatic methodologies are for amateurs. The comfort zone is the kill zone.

LE, benchresters, hobby shooters, often can not think in a 360 degree orb of responsibility or the of shooting positions required in military operations in varied terrain. When patrolling down the side of a ridge, PKMs start flogging you from the next ridge, the usual 1st barrage of RPG's come in and your hoping not to hear 82mm mortars whistle in... one does not prone out with ass above head,square up to the perceived tgt, exposing nearly all ones body, & 6-7" of head above the line O bore... to try recreate the ideal body position learned on one way square ranges. You need to reduce the enemy from a cover position appropriate to the threat, w/o creating a signature that garners ballistic attention.

We used to giggle a little at the opposition combatants that fully exposed their head and upper body, fully over line o bore, showing above rooftops or rocky precipices. InShallah, be that guy.

If you can't shoot a canted rifle your understanding of the math of your zero, bore offset, optics reticle and external ballistics of your cartridge is limited. And, if you fully realize the effects of even subtle canting, your much more likely to recognize mistakes often attributed to "wind"

If one doesn't have the time to invest or maintain a higher skillset, at least you know your limitations. 99.9% of drivers can't left foot brake, trail brake, or brake drift.. required race winning techniques. Mocking what your not capable of or don't understand... helps keep the world flat.

Great explanation!!!!
Canting a rifle is not voodo magic. It's been used in non precision weapons for a VERY long time as a way to deal with cover. Well it's no different with a presicion system. It's all about understanding your dope and ballistic trajectory. It's something you need to be familiar with if using your system to fight.

As usual the peanut gallery weights in on things they know little off. You don't understand what it take to fight with a long gun and think you know something just because you always shoot from a bench or from a comfortable prone position at a square range. It's the way of the internet forum.

[a0cake]

First of all, this must have just gotten moved to the Magpul industry section. Had it originated there, I would not have criticized it openly out of courtesy.

Secondly, some of you are being overly sensitive. One of you even implied that I said Todd H. can't teach or something like that (WTF?). I disagreed with a technique I saw in the trailer for this video. I didn't sleep with someone's mother. Todd H. and all involved in the production of this video are professionals and deserve respect. Disagreeing is not disrespect. Let's discuss facts and not get emotional like some of you have.

Third, I am also a professional. Few people on this forum (Dano is probably one of them) have as much experience fighting and shooting in varied and extreme terrain. Professionals are allowed to disagree.

Unconventional shooting positions are hugely important in the contemporary operating environment. For example, a common enemy TTP is to initiate contact upon exfil of friendly forces from the objective area when cover is often scarce (negotiating terraces, rock washouts, water crossings, etc). So being able to maximize available cover and return fire accurately and effectively is clearly of paramount importance. Unconventional shooting positions are often required. That's in the mountains...urban areas require just as much flexibility in shooting position if not more. Understanding the effects of cant on POI is important, and something I understand very well.

Now, WHAT I DISAGREE WITH, tactically and technically, is firing a bolt gun with a 90 degree left / right cant at extended ranges. It comes down to individuals functioning in their intended role. Upon contact, grab cover as best you can in whatever position necessary, go through your OODA loop, identify a target, present the rifle in the way that will most likely result in a hit, and engage that point target.

If the rest of the element with individual weapons wants to return fire at long range from modified prone positions with 45 / 90 degree weapon cants etc. IOT maximize cover then that's what they need to do, so long as they understand the effects of such a position (and they will).

Point is, when a precision rifle is in my hands and the target is at 300+, the rifle is vertical when the trigger breaks. Doesn't make me an amateur.

Disagree if you want, but please, don't be dramatic about it. Opine from a position of experience. I've spent an abnormally large portion of my life behind precision rifles as a Sniper in the Korengal Valley and other similar shitholes. I know what it feels like to get caught with your pants down with no cover. But I've never felt the need to engage a long range target with my rifle canted at 90 degrees. Although I have the mental faculty and training to make such a shot happen, it's a variable I chose to eliminate from "the long range game."

[Steve]

With all do respect we ran semi auto Obr in that position from the rocks for a reason and for a learning lesson on how thing can be done and were done and how the optics can be manipulated to work

We were and are students and were there to learn and we did nothing is absolute it's a clip of a very valuable teaching point

[brickbd]

I'm pretty sure we are all going to have to agree to disagree!



I know what my "PROFESSIONAL" trigger time is in a real world senario and I will just say this.... WHEN I recieve my disc's I will watch and analyze them as to how they pertain to my current training and take what I feel is good training out of it and leave the rest on the disk and move forward!!

[Dano5326]

If limiting your perspective to what has worked for one in the past is ok with you, free too stay in your comfort zone.. statistically it'll probably work.

Pistol shooting and/or "weak side" shooting with a secondary is seldom practiced and derided in some circles. In the many thousands of raids and gunfights in the last ten years I only know of three people that have transitioned to secondary weapons & one guy that actually used his left (non-primary) hand to engage after a primary side injury. The odds of requiring this skill are a fraction of a percent, but paid big dividends when needed.

An individual (organization dependent) can weigh their own perceived requirements and adjust accordingly. Of course a pyramid of training precedence must be made within limited time constraints and resources. But I will never belittle anything that: increases speed of hits, increases hits, enables hits or lowers signature/exposure. Hits matter and the opposition can only tgt what they can see.

If your training regime even only permits a snap shot of canted shooting, better than most training modalities. At least guys will have an inkling of where to start should they be knee deep in an awkward position shit-show... knowing approximately where the rds will go & where to look for the trace/splash and compensate.


Regarding a bolt gun... limited utility, in military application, IMO. I see no place for a bolt gun in anything less than 338... and only then because I haven't found a tight 338 semiauto.


Having not viewed the DVDs, I cannot comment on why any actions were or were not done. Keeping in mind, all media adverts since we were kids... trailers are meant to be sensational and grab you.

Intentionally canted shooting... For teaching points, with new shooters, I can think of a couple reasons. For lower % shots required by tactical circumstance... many more.

I have completed a couple different US Mil sniper courses... trained with Mcmillian, Todd H, and some other suspects.

Todd's capabilities, enthusiasm, and teaching abilities severely raise the performance bar. No video can substitute for one on one time, but I would expect something good out of his involvement.