1-4x Scope for Duty use?

[cop1211]

the only thing I wold quibble with is that the 1-4 suffers in comparison to a RDS in unconventional positions.

in a Dynamic Fighting Rifle class, we were in a supine (on our backs) position to simulate falling or being thrown down. the response to this is to thrust the carbine out against the sling and fire. the RDS was ideal, much better than irons sights, for rapid accurate shots, while the 1-4 was unusable, requiring a "point shooting" style.

at near contact distance this would not be an issue but even at 10 yards, the difference in accuracy and speed of response was substantial...

I can agree with the supine position the rds is better in that specific position, although it is still doable with the 1-4.

I haven't found the rds to substantially faster at 10 yards nor more accurate, but peoples idea of substantial can be different.

I say go for it and train with it worst case you can keep it and switch back and forth, with the rds i.e. if you know your going to be on a perimeter. Or you can sell it if it doesn't fit your needs, and get an Aimpoint or the new SRS that is coming soon.

[ra2bach]

I can agree with the supine position the rds is better in that specific position, although it is still doable with the 1-4.

I haven't found the rds to substantially faster at 10 yards nor more accurate, but peoples idea of substantial can be different.

I agree that from a prepared setup, the 1-4 is practically as quick as the RDS. what I meant was at 10 yards supine, the 1-4 used conventionally, was no go.

the drill was, you are moving to cover but trip/stumble and fall, how do you respond? (in the interest of safety, we performed the drill from the ground without the trip/stumble and fall part...)

we covered firing from both sides where sighting through the scope is possible, but on your back is completely different because the gun is not on your shoulder. the drill instructed to push the gun out to the limit of the sling to stabilize it and engage the target. with the gun off your shoulder, it was not possible to get a sight picture through the scope, requiring a "point shooting" method. the RDS could be seen and at 10 yards fired significantly more accurately and quicker.

and fwiw, I have and use both RDS and 1-4 on different guns with different intentions. my up-close/HD gun wears an AP T1 with fixed rear sight. my "general purpose" gun is a lightweight with a 1-4. another lightweight wears an AP PRO and I have considered adding a tip-off magnifier on a QD mount to this. I got a cheap 3X magnifier for a proof-of-concept and I was pleased enough with the results that I will probably invest in better components.

I see the magnifier as adding functionality to the RDS but still not as beneficial as a true 1-4 if the range gets much past the limits of the RDS alone. I think it aids in observation and target identification but even the smaller 2MOA dot becomes a 6MOA dot at 3X and there is no index for trajectory change. I'm sure there is some formula for using the top, middle, and bottom of the dot but I don't have any time on it to know those.

it doesn't replace a good 1-4 in my book...

[cop1211]

We practice the same way you described during SWAT training, I just dont push it out all the way, again totally agree that for this position rds wins, but it's doable, where you can still see the reticule.

I said it before, the choose of optic is definately the most "personal" item that you add.

Each one has its positives and negatives.

You just need to figure out which positives, and negatives ,your willling to accept, and what your mission is for the optic that you choose.

[ra2bach]

We practice the same way you described during SWAT training, I just dont push it out all the way, again totally agree that for this position rds wins, but it's doable, where you can still see the reticule.

I said it before, the choose of optic is definately the most "personal" item that you add.

Each one has its positives and negatives.

You just need to figure out which positives, and negatives ,your willling to accept, and what your mission is for the optic that you choose.

yep. totally agree...

[bp7178]

I'd love to know how many people have been shot from the supine posistion.

With my rifle, I can hold it at arms length and very easily make out the reticle and dot of a S&B Short Dot LE. The view is every bit as sharp and bright as normal eye releif, but the view is constricted. It reminds me of looking through, intrestingly enough, a T-1 at the same distance from eye. As you move the scope closer to your eye in the proper posistion, you gain edge to edge clarity. Having a scope with a good exit pupil/eye box is very important. From the scopes i've owned, i've noticed the ones with an exit pupil at or above 14mm on 1x made a huge difference in how tolerant the scope was.

As much as people complain about the TA31's eye releif, you could still hold it at arms length and find the reticle.

Granted, the Schmidt is an expensive option, and I'm not saying people need one to shoot supine, I'm really doubting the utility of the supine posistion. How effective can you really shoot from that posistion? A slight movement and you can be in urban prone, with proper cheek and stock weld.

I see the magnifier as adding functionality to the RDS but still not as beneficial as a true 1-4 if the range gets much past the limits of the RDS alone. I think it aids in observation and target identification but even the smaller 2MOA dot becomes a 6MOA dot at 3X and there is no index for trajectory change.

Its still a 2 MOA dot with a 3x magnifier added. The dot is 3x bigger, but so is the target, so the reticle's size in proportion to the target is exactly the same. This is no different to how a FFP scope works.

[ST911]

Slight side-track: Those who are utilizing magnified optics on patrol rifles, are you shooting a different Q course or additional stages to assess performance with the magnification? Additional formal training or at least familiarization with the magnified optic? (Same, if using an added magnifier with a 1x RDS in lieu of a magnified optic?)

[cop1211]

I fire the same patrol/SWAT quals. Then we get extra range time with SWAT,and I shoot on my own.

[snakedoc257]

Thanks for all the information guys. As far as budget I was looking at a Burris MTAC, a Nikon m223, or a Leupold AR. These are probably low budget for most of you guys.

I'm wanting a small power scope on a second rifle just to have more options. If I don't like it, I'll keep it at the house and stick with my Eotech. Our SOP is pretty much open as far as optics. As long as you are trained/qualified and show proficiency with the weapon/optic you can carry it on duty.

As far as carrying, I just got a new unmarked, so there is no rack in it as of now. My shotgun and my AR are riding in a dual soft case in my trunk. We are not sure how we are going to mount our weapons at this point, we are still researching options. If I decide to go with a 1-4x I'm not sure where I will carry it, most likely the trunk.

Our uniform patrol cars are all equipped with shotguns and AR's and every Officer is put through our carbine course. Officers are allowed to carry their own as long as they qualify with them twice a year. If they use an optic(rds) they have to qualify with just the irons and then using the optic.

I think a 1-4x scope with quick release mount would be qualified just like any other AR with an Optic. No one else has carried an AR equipped this way at my Dept., so I'll be the guinea pig.

Thanks again for the information.

[cop1211]

Good luck, as far as your list of possible options do as much research as you can also keep an eye on some deals on some better options that pop up on the EE.
I just sold a TR24 with cat tail and Larue mount for$660.

[ra2bach]

I'd love to know how many people have been shot from the supine posistion.

I don't know. it was a drill in a Dynamic (moving/changing) Fighting Rifle class. I have been in other classes with 4 different instructors that ran this drill so at least someone thinks it's worthwhile.

With my rifle, I can hold it at arms length and very easily make out the reticle and dot of a S&B Short Dot LE. The view is every bit as sharp and bright as normal eye releif, but the view is constricted. It reminds me of looking through, intrestingly enough, a T-1 at the same distance from eye. As you move the scope closer to your eye in the proper posistion, you gain edge to edge clarity. Having a scope with a good exit pupil/eye box is very important. From the scopes i've owned, i've noticed the ones with an exit pupil at or above 14mm on 1x made a huge difference in how tolerant the scope was.

I can't speak to the S&B as the one time I had one in my grimy paws, all I did was gawk and gaze. I do have experience with a Burris Mtac, Nightforce 1-4, USO SN1 (?), a Super Sniper 1-4, and a host of other lesser optics. and curiously the SS was the most proficient at what you are describing. maybe it's because of the FFP?

As much as people complain about the TA31's eye releif, you could still hold it at arms length and find the reticle.

I didn't say you couldn't find the reticle - I said the difference in speed and accuracy was substantial...

again, no experience with this optic at arms length but can you really use this optic as proficiently as a RDS in the situation we're talking about? I can hold a soda straw in front of me and look through it, and it might even be easier to use than the Acog mounted to a gun and used in this fashion but damn, are you really trying to argue that one is as good as the other???

Granted, the Schmidt is an expensive option, and I'm not saying people need one to shoot supine, I'm really doubting the utility of the supine posistion. How effective can you really shoot from that posistion? A slight movement and you can be in urban prone, with proper cheek and stock weld.

again with this - I don't know the real world applications of this. I do know it was taught as a method to provide rapid and accurate return fire from an unconventional position.

how effective can you really shoot from that position? in my case, using an Eotech from 10 yards, it was pretty damn effective. maybe a T1 would be slower but it would still be light years faster than trying to precisely elevate and align the gun to the single position where you could "find" the reticle, and stabilize a magnified optic through rapid fire.

moving to urban prone? we did train in that position as well. but again, I don't know the genesis of the supine drill. maybe lead is already in the air which is what caused you to move. or took one in the leg or somewhere else and it caused you to fall down. maybe you're just clumsy but you have to return fire RIGHT NOW. I didn't argue the point...

I'm not a genius or a veteran of years of combat. that's why I pay money to other people to get their experience and training. since I do this and trust they know what they are talking about, I do the good student thing and shut up, listen, and try to learn as much as they have to offer. if in your experience this tactic is BS, and if I ever pay you to train me, then you'll get an opportunity to explain why. in the mean time, I don't care to object to something under the guise of cynicism. I'll just do my best to learn the technique as presented and move on...

Its still a 2 MOA dot with a 3x magnifier added. The dot is 3x bigger, but so is the target, so the reticle's size in proportion to the target is exactly the same. This is no different to how a FFP scope works.

well, uh, yeah. I knew that... I already said I wasn't a genius, right?..