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Thread: Short buffer tube

  1. #11
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    perhaps an over all length legal issue?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfltackdriver View Post
    HK is famous for not making their high-speed gadgets available for civilian purchase.
    Fixed it for you

    You can not get HK high-speed gadgets for civilian purchase anywhere. This is German law, actually put there by... U.S. Purpose was to prevent Germany from raising army by delivering "weapons of war" to civilians (what they did before WWII to work around Versailles treaty). HK can sell their high-speed gadgets only to end-users that are either military or law enforcement. This is not company policy, this is law.

    No civilian, private security or PMC can have it. Even if U.S. would not have import bans, HK would not sell it for civilians. All they can do is make neutered "match rifles" like SL-8 or MR223/MR308/MR556 or USC. That is why HK was initially so pissed by HK416 uppers going into civilian hands in US. Per US law it was OK, upper was not "machine gun", but per German law any part of "machine gun" (an machine gun is "weapon of war") is a "machine gun".

    Of course this can have workarounds - but this require to move company and production out of Germany.

    BTW How would I know if you are not LE or mil? That is why I asked how you define "available".
    Montrala

    I'm sponsored competition shooter representing Heckler&Koch, Kahles, Hornady and Typhoon Defence brands in Poland, so I can be biased

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by montrala View Post
    Fixed it for you

    You can not get HK high-speed gadgets for civilian purchase anywhere. This is German law, actually put there by... U.S. Purpose was to prevent Germany from raising army by delivering "weapons of war" to civilians (what they did before WWII to work around Versailles treaty). HK can sell their high-speed gadgets only to end-users that are either military or law enforcement. This is not company policy, this is law.

    No civilian, private security or PMC can have it. Even if U.S. would not have import bans, HK would not sell it for civilians. All they can do is make neutered "match rifles" like SL-8 or MR223/MR308/MR556 or USC. That is why HK was initially so pissed by HK416 uppers going into civilian hands in US. Per US law it was OK, upper was not "machine gun", but per German law any part of "machine gun" (an machine gun is "weapon of war") is a "machine gun".

    Of course this can have workarounds - but this require to move company and production out of Germany.

    BTW How would I know if you are not LE or mil? That is why I asked how you define "available".
    This is why I don't endorse people saying H&K has "abandoned the north american market" There are laws in place by both governments to hamper H&K at every turn. Cost to profit probably isn't worth jumping through all those hoops
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  4. #14
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    That's all well and good except H&K does in fact have a facility in Columbus, GA and I think they have an affiliate up in the Northeast. So as far as the U.S market is concerned they could easily get around all of the nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by montrala View Post
    Fixed it for you

    You can not get HK high-speed gadgets for civilian purchase anywhere. This is German law, actually put there by... U.S. Purpose was to prevent Germany from raising army by delivering "weapons of war" to civilians (what they did before WWII to work around Versailles treaty). HK can sell their high-speed gadgets only to end-users that are either military or law enforcement. This is not company policy, this is law.

    No civilian, private security or PMC can have it. Even if U.S. would not have import bans, HK would not sell it for civilians. All they can do is make neutered "match rifles" like SL-8 or MR223/MR308/MR556 or USC. That is why HK was initially so pissed by HK416 uppers going into civilian hands in US. Per US law it was OK, upper was not "machine gun", but per German law any part of "machine gun" (an machine gun is "weapon of war") is a "machine gun".

    Of course this can have workarounds - but this require to move company and production out of Germany.

    BTW How would I know if you are not LE or mil? That is why I asked how you define "available".



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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    That's all well and good except H&K does in fact have a facility in Columbus, GA and I think they have an affiliate up in the Northeast. So as far as the U.S market is concerned they could easily get around all of the nonsense.
    It is not that easy, as long as HQ is in Germany and/or ownership is from Germany. Every time something with HK written on it shows in news in hands of US PMC company, Georgian President security detachment or Mexican Police, HK gmbh HQ gets raided by German Police and prosecutors, bashed in media and threaten to shut down by politicians.

    And (as strange as it might sound) US market is small for HK and making firearms in US would effectively cut HK of from rest of the world (ITAR). Small scale assembling with main components made in Germany (HK45, HK45C, MR556) is one thing, full size production is another. Until HK416 IC will become "IC", but HK got already burned on XM-8.

    Anyway BTT: HK416C is as commercially available as it can be. It is a niche weapon that was designed to fill needs of one customer, who choose not to adopt it, but HK decided to cover cost by offering it COTS. In HK offer it doubles with MP7. I wonder if it can "kill" MP7 like HK416 "killed" G36.
    Montrala

    I'm sponsored competition shooter representing Heckler&Koch, Kahles, Hornady and Typhoon Defence brands in Poland, so I can be biased

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by montrala View Post
    Anyway BTT: HK416C is as commercially available as it can be. It is a niche weapon that was designed to fill needs of one customer, who choose not to adopt it, but HK decided to cover cost by offering it COTS. In HK offer it doubles with MP7. I wonder if it can "kill" MP7 like HK416 "killed" G36.
    Your English isn't exactly clear, so I don't follow some of this. I do have to wonder if the same user the 416C was marketed toward is the user who is actually fielding the MP7? As far as domestic manufacturing in the U.S., politics, and where their market is, it's my opinion as someone who grew up in Sterling and Ashburn that those are largely of HK's making.

    But really back to the topic, who wants to help me figure out a way to actually build one of these stock assemblies? There is a guy on TOS who has a batch spec'd out and built, but wants to try to patent the design before releasing them. I honestly commend him on the effort, but I think attempting to patent your take on a rehashed design is a waste.
    I do not ride to work in a helicopter or pretend to have insider information from my fifth cousin's friend about Delta Force, although I once served with a SEAL unit at Fort Monroe. It was a wedding party and I was 10. And no, I have not stopped talking about it.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfltackdriver View Post
    What's old is new again. Research shows DPMS made a reproduction of the 231 stock system a few years ago, but with what looks like a carbine-length tube, or close to it, for OAL legality. I'm looking to slap this on an SBR, so that is not my concern -- and frankly, why I want it.

    I wonder if I could slap one together with the DPMS wire stock, bracket and a buffer tube kit from GSE?

    http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/A..._Kits_GSE.html
    I am honestly surprised someone on here (especially some not in S. FL) has heard of GSE..
    “WE THE PEOPLE are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”


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  8. #18
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    Why? They've been around for a long time, admittedly on the edges of the industry but present.

    OP, it was a terrible design on the M231, I dunno for Hockler's or the newer models but it's flimsy.

  9. #19
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    I've just never heard anything about them here.
    “WE THE PEOPLE are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”


    ~ Abraham Lincoln

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfltackdriver View Post
    What's old is new again. Research shows DPMS made a reproduction of the 231 stock system a few years ago, but with what looks like a carbine-length tube, or close to it, for OAL legality. I'm looking to slap this on an SBR, so that is not my concern -- and frankly, why I want it.

    I wonder if I could slap one together with the DPMS wire stock, bracket and a buffer tube kit from GSE?

    http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/A..._Kits_GSE.html
    The tubes were made specific to time and tighten on the wire stock bracket. At the time period I bought one the wire stocks would only close on old style lowers that did not have the reinforcing around the rear buffer thread area of the lower.
    Last edited by curious1; 12-15-11 at 08:56.

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