"Do we train as we fight" by Josh Collins

[Shawn.L]

Good read on page 8 by Northern Red Chief Comabtives instructor Josh Collins

http://www.infantryassn.com/Bugler%2...Summer2007.pdf

[Jim D]

I'm looking forward to getting into a class with Josh. Really one of those guys who knows how to separate what works in the ring from what works in the real world.

[USMC_Anglico]

Great read. The Army combatives program is good, but as pointed out has the wrong focus on the progression of skills. MMA groundfighting is all good in the gym, but in the real world first learning how to go hands on in kit and stay on your feet are the skills that should be learned first. Then progress to more MMA/BJJ type stuff.

[Preliator]

Great read. The Army combatives program is good, but as pointed out has the wrong focus on the progression of skills. MMA groundfighting is all good in the gym, but in the real world first learning how to go hands on in kit and stay on your feet are the skills that should be learned first. Then progress to more MMA/BJJ type stuff.

Agreed:

The two H2H fights that I am intimately familiar with that ended in one party being killed both were won by better situational awareness and initial aggresive action.

The first one I was witness to, we were dealing with an angry crowd situation right after the march to Baghdad was done in mid-late april 2003. A couple of militants infiltrated the crowd and began attacking Marines with bricks, glass bottles and one hand grenade. We were ordered to extract. As we were pulling back on of my Marines was caught out to close to the crowd and they tried to snatch either him or his rifle - at any rate the guy that grabbed his rifle got snatched by the throat and balls and was lifted and thrown into a concrete divider head first. Last I saw of him (the militant) as we pulled out in our HMMWV's was him bleeding out of his nose, ears and mouth and convulsing on the ground. The Marine in question had a weight lifting and football background, his quick and violent response to the weapon grab probably saved his own life, and quite possible kept the situation from becoming one where we would have taken casualties.

The second I was not present for, but got a first hand account from my very close friend, who was the platoon sergeant. Helmand Prov. Afghanistan, Marines were on a patrol in a village in their AO and came into close contact with a 6-8 man insurgent force that had 1 or 2 heavy caliber machine guns supporting them at stand off range. The Marines closed in on the force in the village and during the course of the moving gunfight a LCpl SAW gunner moved into the point position. The LCpl moved to a position where he was able to observe 4 enemy combatants who were moving to a new position. He engaged them at close quarters, killing 3 in the street. The fourth had moved around a corner apparently seeking cover. The other Marines were taking fire from a nearby house/mud hut. the LCpl had run his SAW dry and was in the process of reloading (with fanastic stiuational awareness) and heard the 4th combatant moving rapidly around a corner towards his position. He dropped his SAW and grabbed the Afghan man's AK-47. They wrestled over the rifle for a brief time before the Marine pulled it out of the Afghan's hands. He struck the combatant repeatedly in the face, knocking him to the ground, pulled a knife and stabbed him to death.

Both situations started on their feet, and in my opinion based on what I saw and the account that I heard, both really ended before they went to the ground. Situational awareness, confidence and aggresiveness are generally going to win hand to hand fights in my opinion.

[NCPatrolAR]

Keep in mind that the current Army Combatives program has its roots firmly planted in Brazilian/Gracie JiuJitsu. When the program started; it was nothing more than 13 BJJ techniques in one of the appendixes of a manual from 75th Ranger Rgt. I'm simply happy to see that it has grown to include more material over the years

[Preliator]

Anything that fosters the warrior mindset is a good thing.

[jenrick]

From a LE perspective: grappling and ground fighting are fantastic training tools to help increase the warrior mindset, and to allow officers to subdue a resisting subject who is not presenting a deadly force threat. Additionally with the ever increasing number of folks training grappling it's good to be exposed to it, and to learn how to counter different techniques. Standup however dramatically increase our standoff distance, and out ability to deploy additional tools compared to grappling. That's why we load up with all our gear, so we don't have to go hands on. Why loose that advantage?

-Jenrick

[NCPatrolAR]

When it comes to training stand up or grappling skills first; I actually prefer to start people on the ground, establish a few skills, then move them to their feet. I'm a fan of this progression because most people have a certain amount of "natural" ability to fight while standing (aka everyone having a puncher's chance) but have pretty much no clue as to what to do on the ground. By giving a person the ability to survive in positions of disadvantage and then escape/reverse; you enable them to survive a fight when it goes to an area they are very unfamiliar with.

[6933]

I took Karate as a kid in junior high and through high school that was the extent of formal training. Growing up in the rural south meant fighting was simply something guys did. I had my share of fights and then some. However, the fighting had unwritten rules and even though beating the shit out of somebody wasn't off limits, we generally knew no one involved was going to get killed.

While at the Univ. of Tenn., I saw the first several UFC's and decided that was for me. Knoxville just happened to have a dojo that taught BJJ at this early date so it was perfect. The guys there were really into BJJ, but standup was heavily taught as well since several competed in MMA. After several months of training, I landed a job at a good club bouncing. Only time I ever had to get into it there was when some guy from the street tried to rob our manager who had gone two doors down to get a bottle of liquor. Street fight on the concrete sidewalk and asphalt of the road. I used kicks and punches and no ground.

It was a shock afterwards b/c in my mind I was sure if I ever got into it BJJ was the way to go. Also, it made me change the way I had to look at a situation where I am forced to act. This, coupled with several other instances over the next couple of yrs., made me realize that I must win the fight before it ever begins.

Fighting is more mental than physical, generally, by far. So, with common sense, good reading of situations, and awareness, one should be able to sense when the need for violence has arrived. Strike first. Then, depending upon the situation, you may need to beat feet, or, beat your feet on that mother ****ers head, and/or, his friends head. Maybe his girlfriend will need an ass kicking. I put in the last part b/c so many people do not think certain scenarios could ever happen. I was one, and this is where it ties back in with growing up where "we generally knew no one involved was going to get killed." We also generally knew that the other guy probably wouldn't be trying to kill us. I cannot use that same logic anymore. There are shitloads of ****ed up nutjobs out here.

So, when there is no recourse but violence, make sure you are the one to initiate. Violence of attack situationally dependent.

[Blake]

When it comes to training stand up or grappling skills first; I actually prefer to start people on the ground, establish a few skills, then move them to their feet. I'm a fan of this progression because most people have a certain amount of "natural" ability to fight while standing (aka everyone having a puncher's chance) but have pretty much no clue as to what to do on the ground. By giving a person the ability to survive in positions of disadvantage and then escape/reverse; you enable them to survive a fight when it goes to an area they are very unfamiliar with.

I both agree and disagree with some of the things you have said. I don't think many people at all have a "natural" ability to fight while standing. While it may be easy to show someone how to throw a punch, to sit there and just wave your arms is useless and counterproductive. I think it is easier to show someone some basic ground holds and balance, than it is to show someone how to timely and accurately throw a punch.

While many fights go to the ground, it is also a place that a person carrying a weapon should desperately try to avoid. I think this is something I have had to come to terms with as a former wrestler. My academy preached this as well as instructors like SouthNarc. Avoid the ground if possible, but know how to deal with it, if it happens.