No love for the 10mm?

[DocGKR]

Most any service caliber will work on cougers/mountain lions and do OK against most black bears. Obviously brown bears/grizzlies are an entirely different situation...

[Jack-O]

I'm a big fan of the Gold dot and Hunting Shack loads up the 10mm with the 180gr gold dot to a respectable 1150fps and has been very reliable for me.

IMO the 10mm really comes into it's own in the heavier 200gr loadings where it can penetrate really well. the WFN hardcast should provide for very good penetration of barriers like cars and Abrams tanks

Some guys like the light fast projectiles but I dont see much advantage to them, however there is a new 135gr lead hollow point that does not fragment and is supposed to expand reliably made by Hunters Supply. that would seem to answer some problems with the typical overdriven lightweights now and may provide the ability to get some TSC if driven fast enough.

I think it's really sad that such a popular caliber (it's the gun worlds dirty little secret. everyone seems to have one. when I sold ammo at gun shows i ALWAYS sold every single round of 10mm I could bring) gets ignored because no law enforcement or government uses it. Thats too bad because thousands of hikers, hunters and sportsmen use it every year and I think that they deserve to have some solid current testing of the most popular bullets like:
-180gr Gold dot
-200gr hard cast WFN
-200gr XTP
-155, 140 and 125gr barnes tac xp bullets (140 looks really promising)
- new 135gr hunters supply pentagon hollow point
-135gr Nosler


we could settle some arguments with some gel testing and maybe put some myths to rest.

frankly I think I know what to expect from most of them (having seen many hunting pictures of wounds and pass thrus), but the 140gr Barnes and the 135gr pentagon intrigue me. I'm curious if we will see decent penetration. I'm also curious just HOW DEEP the 200gr WFN will go.

---

Doc, I have a question. what would be the difference terminally (ie stretch damage) between a 180gr gold dot driven at 1150 vs the same driven at 1300fps. is there an advantage to having the extra velocity? What about the 125gr barnes driven to 1500fps?

---

For the most part the older factory "LE" loads by companies like winchester and federal are just not available for purchase for the regular guy if they are even still made. But there has been a decent amount of chronograph testing of available smaller company factory loads by enthusiasts (which is all we are left with when everyone else ignores the caliber). For the most part almost all manufacturers of "hot" 10mm overstate thier velocities. Some by as much as 200-300fps and buffalo bore is no exception check out the videos from this guy who's done a bunch of velocity testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4-...8&feature=plcp
http://www.facebook.com/pages/10mm-ammo/188837037856507

In leiu of gel tests we have to go with hunting pictures (deer and hogs mostly). Almost across the board we see full penetration with the occasional double kill with one bullet. IN spite of claims that it's a nuclear weapon, the wounds all pretty much just look like a heavy, large caliber wound channel to me, with full penetration at ranges under 100 yards. The bullets from hunters seem to follow about what you'd expect:
- 135gr nosler fragments and does fine in deer unless it hits bone then underpenetrates
-180GDhp performs well, penetrating deer fully unless it hits bone then penetrates acceptably. nice wound channels with small entry and exit holes
-200XTP hp almost always passes thru everything with hogs and bone seeming to stop it occasionally. nice wound channels with small entry and exit holes
-200hard cast full penetration is the rule with projectiles almost never recovered and minimal wound channels

If I can get a copy of the spreadsheet I'll post it here.

[BullittBoy]

How did you determine in #! above that the load(s) indentified is(are) great in home defense? You say it has worked well for you. How often do you deploy that load in defense of your home?

In #2 above, you state that 155, 165, and 180 grain Gold Dots are "great barrier loads." Would you be so kind as to share the testing done to determine that? Again, stating that it has worked well for you, perhaps, you can share what you did to come to that conclusion"


In response to #1 I have shot it (135 grain handloads, Cor-Bon, Triton (back when they were around) into wet news pack and phone books wet and dry and compared it to .357 Mag loads and 9mm,.40, and .45 loads and the 135 Nosler or Sierra had excellent expansion and fragmented extremely well. It is a regular soft point bullet so it will not be a great barrier round, but would be a good home defense load where you are concerned about over-penetration. I have shot it out of both my Colt and Kimber 5" Govt. models and it is very accurate as well. I would not want to be hit by it

#2 the Gold Dot is a bonded hollow point and does extremely well with barriers. I shot the 155 grain load from Georgia Arms into a 1970's Torino and it did extremely well in comparison to other 9mm and .40 I have tested. Glass penetration and door penetration is what I tested and it went through both extremely well, as did most 40 and 9mm bonded bullets. It is an extremely hot load, and is very accurate as well.

[Bad Medicine]

The 10mm really doesn't have much support from the mainstream manufacturers anymore. It's too weak to serve as a decent hunting or large predator defensive caliber, and it is a bit too heafty for a self defense caliber. I guess it can be considered a jack of all trades, but master of none. In a defensive situation against a determined attacker who may be incorporating some tactics other than walking straight at me like a dumb s**t, I'd rather use .40S&W with 180gr HSTs. In grizzly country I'd rather be using a .44magnum(or larger) with 300gr Hornady XTPs. So, from my end I don't really have a purpose for the 10mm.

The only reason I don't own a 10mm is because the cost of ammo and the ability to find it. The 10mm is everything the .40 claims to be but isn't. It lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45. I wouldn't take a .40 if someone gave it to me, I would stick with 9mm or .45 due to availability of ammo and cost. But don't knock the 10mm it is an awesome round!

[DocGKR]

Bad Medicine--Your comments that .40, "lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45" is factually erroneous. You may be unaware of this, but our Nation's finest shooters are using .40's in combat with no complaints. In fact there was once a very experienced SOF NCO who posted at LF, a veritable tactical rock star who killed many of our Nation's foes, who had the distinction of having used a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP in combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he move to a unit that used the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:

"Some people want to make up for their training short falls with a gun that recoils less. OK, but at least call a spade a ****ing spade. Ask yourself which bullet you would rather get shot with. You can show up with ANY 9mm platform you want, and I will bring .40 and if you are not master class bad ass, I will burn you down on a shot timer with full power duty ammo. Recoil management is a nice skill to learn. Other wise I would have just taken up eye socket shooting with a .22 magnum. .40 costs an ass load, but if the ammo fairy allows you to train, then .40 should not hold you back on your split times or shot placement...Ballistic tests on 9mm vs .40? Sorry I just can't buy it. That .40 is smoking hot."

[Bad Medicine]

Bad Medicine--Your comments that .40, "lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45" is factually erroneous. You may be unaware of this, but our Nation's finest shooters are using .40's in combat with no complaints. In fact there was once a very experienced SOF NCO who posted at LF, a veritable tactical rock star who killed many of our Nation's foes, who had the distinction of having used a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP in combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he move to a unit that used the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:

I understand where you are coming from Doc, but the numbers don't lie 10mm's penetration is awesome, same bullet as the .40 but the 10mm has more energy with the increased velocity. Also 9mm is cheaper, less recoil, more penetration, higher capacity magazines as well. But that is missing the point, for someone to say that a .40 will cover the short-comings of not using a 10mm is wrong.

[Jack-O]

before this turns silly and goes downhill, I'll post a list of loads tested for velocity by the gentleman I mentioned in my post above. as you can see there are a LOT of 10mm loads commercially available, but if one plans on using it then you can plan on buying thru the mail/internet rather than locally procuring.

http://uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1324321764&/10MM energy.pdf

In my opinion the 10mm shines in three areas
1-good terminal ballistics with good bullets
2- excellent trajectory for longer shots now feasible with the RDS trend
3-Penetration comparable to magnum calibers

[DocGKR]

"Also 9mm is cheaper, less recoil, more penetration, higher capacity magazines as well. "

I am not seeing a penetration advantage for 9mm in our testing or those by other organizations. Typically .40 penetrates better than 9 mm, particularly after many common intermediate barriers, especially auto windshields.

[Bad Medicine]

I am not seeing a penetration advantage for 9mm in our testing or those by other organizations. Typically .40 penetrates better than 9 mm, particularly after many common intermediate barriers, especially auto windshields.

After reviewing the numbers I agree that the 9mm and the 40 are pretty evenly matched with tenths of an inch difference with clothing only. I don't know about windshields though and would appreciate some numbers so I can educate myself.

[KhanRad]

After reviewing the numbers I agree that the 9mm and the 40 are pretty evenly matched with tenths of an inch difference with clothing only. I don't know about windshields though and would appreciate some numbers so I can educate myself.

A good place to start: http://www.winchester.com/Products/l...n-testing.aspx

Unfortunately, like many other .357sig and 10mm threads this one is going full retard in a hurry.

A lot of assumptions are being made with little data to back up claims. In "theory" a 10mm loaded with a .40S&W JHP bullet "should" exand to equal levels and penetrate more deeply. However, a JHP designed for .40S&W velocities can also over expand the JHP and either shear off the petals resulting in less momentum and thus....more shallow penetration. Or, the JHP can exand beyond it's designed limit causing the petals to flatten out against the bullet truck resulting in less expansion than the .40, or the bullet practically turns inside out diminishing the bullet's sectional density and thus, less penetration. The same thing was observed in previous testing when .38spl bullets were used in the .357magnum.

My guess as to why Dr. Roberts is not jumping on board these boutique ammo manufacturers is because they are using projectiles designed for the .40S&W or they making their own bullets which do not adhere to any testing standards. Less accountability by the manufacturer resulting in a questionable product for the consumer.