Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: Accidental Discharge Question

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Posts
    523
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    I can't really say what happened but the AR15/M16 firing pin is free floating and when you drop the bolt to chamber a round you may actually see a light dimple on the primer.

    Perhaps an older beat up gun with out of spec bolt and firing pin along with a round that has been chambered several times could cause such an AD. It's really pushing it but I guess it could happen...

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,742
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Except that repeatedly chambering the same round tends to render the primer useless...not more sensitive to detonation.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    103
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Not only is this scenario possible, I have witnessed it first hand on our own range. It was was a few years ago during a patrol rifle certification, at a time when we would allow Officers to borrow another's rifle if they were waiting on their own.

    This particular rifle had a small piece of duct tape over one side of the hammer pin. Unknown to us, the pin had been walking out on the owner, so he decided to fix it with duct tape. It was such a small piece, none of us instructors really noticed it. After the fact, we would later diagnose that the hammer left the factory without a "J" spring installed.

    At some point during the class, the tape came off and the hammer pin walked out far enough that it lost contact with one side of the receiver. Once that happened, the hammer itself fell out of alignment with the disconnector. We were up on the line, with me not standing too far behind said rifle. We gave the command to load up for the next course of fire, and the Officer puts one in the dirt about 2 feet in front of the line. I run up of course, call a cease fire, and tell him to make it safe. He tells me that it won't go to safe, so he immediately trys to rack the round out so it will go to safe, (before I had a chance to tell him to freeze). As soon as he does this, another round launches into the dirt in front of him.

    At this point, I'm close enough to snatch the rifle away from him, drop the mag and pulled/hel the CH to the rear. We step off line, and I'm bewildered that his finger had not been on the trigger when this occurred (at least the second instance that I could see). I double cleared the rifle away from the class, and break it down with a few other instructors.

    We immediately see that the hammer is out of whack and pin had walked. On top of that, there was a few chunks of gravel rattling around in the FCG. All of it combined, caused the accidental discharge. It was a mechanical failure, through no fault of the Officer. Further inspection of the rifle found the missing "J" spring. The rifle was a Rock River, no suprise there.

    We eventually inspected any Officer's rifle who owned a Rock River, and found at least one other missing "J" spring. The event caused us to stop allowing the use of borrowed rifles on the range. When we contacted the owner, he acknowledged that the pin walked on a regular basis, and he never told the Officer who borrowed it. This incident, along with a few others involving Rock River, was enough ammo to take them off the authorized list. It also helped me get BCM approved, so I'd say it was a sweet trade-off. We also added a note to our class room portion, that duct tape is not an authorized method for repairing an AR.
    Last edited by PatrolRifleGroup; 12-18-11 at 12:41.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    18
    Feedback Score
    0
    Further inspection of the rifle found the missing "J" spring. The rifle was a Rock River, no suprise there.
    Two RRA's missing the J spring in the same group?
    I appreciate my DD even more now.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    2,679
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    A buddy had a Colt M16. He inserted a mag, released the bolt and the gun emptied the magazine, no finger on the trigger, I don't remember the position of the safety. We found a primer cup in the mechanism. I bought a Colt HBAR shortly before the Clinton AWB which was missing the J spring. Colt sent me a replacement hammer. I bought two LMT two stage triggers from Bravo Company several months ago. I installed both and immediately noticed the hammer pin walking on one, no J spring. The guy at LMT said it was possible it was shipped without the spring, also possible I dislodged it during installation. If a couple of missing J springs prove that Rock River guns are junk does it prove Colts and LMTs are junk? My experience with ARs is limited and I have seen two missing J springs which inclines me to think this may be a common fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by 77thNYSV View Post
    Two RRA's missing the J spring in the same group?
    I appreciate my DD even more now.
    That's what I need, a rifle that can't be assembled less an important but obscure part.
    Last edited by Suwannee Tim; 12-18-11 at 13:17.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Niantic CT
    Posts
    1,964
    Feedback Score
    6 (100%)
    It’s certainly possible there is a problem with the fire control parts. We are talking about M16A1’s and who knows the history behind it. As a precaution I would have the FCP replaced.
    Certified Glock Armorer

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    160
    Feedback Score
    0
    Can someone post a picture of the J spring for me? Thanks

    (yes I'm a noob).

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    AZ-Waging jihad against crappy AR's.
    Posts
    24,902
    Feedback Score
    104 (100%)
    In the scenario you presented sure. Except that we don't have any of those details from the OP. So is it possible? Yes, and so are aliens and UFO's. But, without that info and an inspection of the weapon from a competent person I default to me original answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by PatrolRifleGroup View Post
    Not only is this scenario possible, I have witnessed it first hand on our own range. It was was a few years ago during a patrol rifle certification, at a time when we would allow Officers to borrow another's rifle if they were waiting on their own.

    This particular rifle had a small piece of duct tape over one side of the hammer pin. Unknown to us, the pin had been walking out on the owner, so he decided to fix it with duct tape. It was such a small piece, none of us instructors really noticed it. After the fact, we would later diagnose that the hammer left the factory without a "J" spring installed.

    At some point during the class, the tape came off and the hammer pin walked out far enough that it lost contact with one side of the receiver. Once that happened, the hammer itself fell out of alignment with the disconnector. We were up on the line, with me not standing too far behind said rifle. We gave the command to load up for the next course of fire, and the Officer puts one in the dirt about 2 feet in front of the line. I run up of course, call a cease fire, and tell him to make it safe. He tells me that it won't go to safe, so he immediately trys to rack the round out so it will go to safe, (before I had a chance to tell him to freeze). As soon as he does this, another round launches into the dirt in front of him.

    At this point, I'm close enough to snatch the rifle away from him, drop the mag and pulled/hel the CH to the rear. We step off line, and I'm bewildered that his finger had not been on the trigger when this occurred (at least the second instance that I could see). I double cleared the rifle away from the class, and break it down with a few other instructors.

    We immediately see that the hammer is out of whack and pin had walked. On top of that, there was a few chunks of gravel rattling around in the FCG. All of it combined, caused the accidental discharge. It was a mechanical failure, through no fault of the Officer. Further inspection of the rifle found the missing "J" spring. The rifle was a Rock River, no suprise there.

    We eventually inspected any Officer's rifle who owned a Rock River, and found at least one other missing "J" spring. The event caused us to stop allowing the use of borrowed rifles on the range. When we contacted the owner, he acknowledged that the pin walked on a regular basis, and he never told the Officer who borrowed it. This incident, along with a few others involving Rock River, was enough ammo to take them off the authorized list. It also helped me get BCM approved, so I'd say it was a sweet trade-off. We also added a note to our class room portion, that duct tape is not an authorized method for repairing an AR.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    AZ-Waging jihad against crappy AR's.
    Posts
    24,902
    Feedback Score
    104 (100%)
    It's not visible (for the most part). Just take a standard hammer and flip it over and look at the bottom. Inside you should see a wire type spring with a hook. That's the "J" spring. It's also partially visible when you look into the hole for the hammer pin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin64 View Post
    Can someone post a picture of the J spring for me? Thanks

    (yes I'm a noob).



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    Posts
    8,192
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin64 View Post
    The ammunition is Winchester Ranger 64gr JSP.

    These old military guns are beat down and people who they are issued to are very far from "gun guys". Typically they are never lubed and the crappy EOTech batteries are always dead.
    Adding a vote for an ND, not a gun malfunction.

    On the condition of the LESO/1033/DRMO guns... A goodly number of them left the armory in reconditioned, or like new form. I've handled a bunch that looked like they hadn't fired a round, and had only rack marks to show for their service lives.
    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •