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Thread: Course Review: F2SConsulting Practical Carbine/Pistol Course - Dec 17/18, 2011

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    Course Review: F2SConsulting Practical Carbine/Pistol Course - Dec 17/18, 2011

    F2SConsulting Practical Carbine/Pistol Course - Dec 17/18, 2011 - Beaver Falls, PA


    This is a facilitated course review for the Jack Leuba/F2SConsulting Practical Carbine/Pistol Course conducted over the weekend of December 17/18, 2011 at the Beaver Valley Rifle and Pistol Club.

    As course host I received a free slot in this class, so it is only appropriate that I recuse myself from posting my own public review as this could be considered a conflict of interest. However, I will facilitate the review for the other shooters in the class by starting the thread, posting thoughts from students who are not active forum members, hosting pictures, etc. I'll also be happy to answer clarifying questions about the coursework and range facilities.

    I would like to extend my thanks and appreciation to my friend Jack Leuba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Cunningham View Post
    As course host I received a free slot in this class, so it is only appropriate that I recuse myself from posting my own public review as this could be considered a conflict of interest.
    Isn't getting a "free" slot pretty standard in the industry for the guy who puts the class together and promotes it? That time and effort ain't free.

    Besides, as a Vickers-endorsed instructor, your view of how professionally Jack conducted the class would be insightful for those of us considering partaking of his training.

    Just my dos centavos.
    "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts." Justice Robert Jackson, WV St. Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

    "I don’t care how many pull ups and sit ups you can do. I care that you can move yourself across the ground with a fighting load and engage the enemy." Max Velocity

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    I really enjoyed this class. This is the second time I've had the pleasure of learning from Jack and honestly after years of reading his interactions, guidance and real world wisdom. There were quite a few new people and I think they were extremely fortunate in their first choice. I've trained with a variety of instructors: Rogers, Vickers, Lamb, Goodale, Awerbuck and several others.

    This was an excellent first offering from Jack as lead instructor and I hope he has a long future in firearms training ahead of him and as such I think he was working out some of the bugs. There were a few but having been a teacher/instructor, lessons plans get refined as you teach more. I would definitely take another class from Jack as they will only get better.

    The main lesson I took away was in carbine selection. We got to do some distance shooting and I switched from a 14.5 M4 type that I used in most of the class to a 16" Recce and found I simply don't gain very much on that end. I'm abandoning the whole idea of a recce or precision/match gun. It's just not my priority and I was very comfortable at distance with my M4 and an Aimpoint.

    Jack is one of the most humble and approachable instructors I've ever had. His techniques are functional, uncomplicated and ultimately dispenses with a lot of flourish. Every once in a while I think you need to go back and relearn the basics as you sometimes forget things, deprioritize their importance or ultimately make things more complicated than they really need to be.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 12-19-11 at 23:18.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

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    I'll be happy to discuss my thoughts offline, but I'm firm on my current stance. It's too easy to slip into whoredom in this game and I'll have none of it.

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    I shared most of my thoughts with Jack via email, but I will say a few things.

    This was my first class (aside from 10 hours of prior training with Low Speed High Drag, LLC), and I was a bit nervous, not knowing what to expect, or if my skillset would be up to snuff for the class, or being the dreaded "That Guy".

    Fortunately Jack's methods of teaching are easy to understand. He makes it very clear as to why to want to do something a certain way.

    Personally, I think I gained the most from the pistol training portion of the class. At the end of TD2, we were doing primary to secondary transitions, and I was getting hits at 50 yds on steel with my G19. I definitely was not able to do that before the class.

    The carbine portion of the class was also very thorough. Jack stresses accuracy quite heavily (which is a good thing obviously), and we did lots of drills to build accuracy and speed. I particularly enjoyed shooting steel and 100 yds using cover, and transitioning from strong side to weak side. Each drill we did had a clear sense of purpose. There was no "well why are we doing this?"

    Little side note: I was in a motorcycle accident a year ago, and because of said accident, I cannot kneel on my left knee (it was broken into 15+ pieces), so some position shooting isn't a go for me (like kneeling). Jack made sure to accomodate me, letting me shoot the drill in question in whatever position I was able to. I appreciated not be told some macho "work through the pain" nonsense, or something of the sort.

    Overall, the class was a really good experience. I can't compare it to other classes, but I have a feeling, after reading lots of AARs here, that F2S Consulting is certainly in the upper tier of training available.
    Last edited by SteadyUp; 12-20-11 at 10:48.
    All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

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    Gunshot John....could you please elaborate on this statement you made below....

    "The main lesson I took away was in carbine selection. We got to do some distance shooting and I switched from a 14.5 M4 type that I used in most of the class to a 16" Recce and found I simply don't gain very much on that end. I'm abandoning the whole idea of a recce or precision/match gun. It's just not my priority and I was very comfortable at distance with my M4 and an Aimpoint."

    1.) Does F2S feel this way, does he make it a point to essentially discount LP AR's.

    2.) What distances, what size targets, what was the difficulty level associated with acquiring the targets that were used in this part of the class(low light, mostly concealed, etc.)

    3.) Any discussion on why a SWAT sniper, or military sniper/SOF might need a little more than the last part I put in bold of your text.

    4.) What were the specs on the "recce" rifle that you ran or that was being used in the class that was obsolete in comparison to a 14.5" CL with a 1x dot sight.

    Thanks in advance

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    First, I want to publicly thank Jay and the shooters.
    It was a pleasure to have each and every one of them in the class.
    There was a broad range of experience and varying backgrounds represented in the class, which was exactly what I wanted.

    The shooters demonstrated exceptional determination, with temperatures in the low 30s for most of the class, those trigger fingers got pretty numb.

    I highly respect Jay's stance on AARs as a comp'ed shooter. He's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position. Should he give a glowing review it could be interpreted as him taking the free slot for a cake piece, and if he gave a less than favorable review it could be seen as him trying to garner more students for himself. I think that his decision is the best possible way to maintain everyone's credibility and professionalism.

    This was my inaugural open enrollment class, and as such there were a few things that I will be changing in the future. There were some topics I did not cover and some that I was only able to lightly cover. This was a combination carbine and pistol class, and in the future this format will only be available in a 3-day class, with rifle or pistol classes in the traditional 2-day length. The combination of short winter days, skills testing, night shooting, and a newly reformatted schedule caused me to be keenly aware that to bring a class to the performance level that I want to attach my name to requires at least another day on the range.

    Re: Trident's questions-
    1- No, I really did no talking about base platforms.
    2- Some students shot from concealment, most from a war-belt type setup. Longest targets were at 100 yards from the standing, and from supported positions, and shooting continued on day 2 until light conditions precluded target detection. For what it's worth, Gutshot John has participated in long-range courses so his opinons on what works for him are based off of actual experience and not internet combat. I am sure that he will share his personal opinon on the subject and won't pretend to speak for him.
    3- I did not discuss those topics in class. What I do believe is this: an Aimpoint is an incredibly effective optic and can be used to good effect on human threats out to 200 meters. I personally prefer a low powered variable, but that preference is based on more than sub-100 meter employment.
    4- That's all GSJ.

    FWIW- future classes will have more time for my input and experience on weapon selection and setup with the opportunity for students to try out some basic configurations before begining training to give them a better fit and faster skillset improvement.

    Thank you to everyone that has shared their thoughts and to those that will. I am really looking forward to the pictures.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

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    Thanks for the reply brother, your opinion and knowledge is certainly one of the ones I value most on M4C. While I saw nothing wrong with Gunshot John's reply above, I did think that perhaps that type of statement could use a bit more explanation. I will say that I feel just the opposite on this issue in question.

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    It's all my subjective takeaway, it wasn't anything that Jack said or didn't say, it just became clear for my purposes and that was part of the reason I wanted to shake it out a bit more on TD2. I don't claim that my choice is best or that it's valid for everyone. Like I said, it's just not what I want to do with 5.56 M4s. YMMV and your opinion is about your needs, my opinion is about mine.

    100 yards with an aimpoint is pretty much child's play, I'm confident I can make headshots at that distance pretty easily from prone. Using an aimpoint I've shot well beyond that (2-400) with relative ease but I don't anticipate shooting beyond 200 with any regularity with an M4 (<200=99% of my need) so I can't justify the extra weight and other shortcomings of a recce setup.

    Essentially I used to believe in a single do-all, rifle. I've found again and again that I have to make too many compromises in that space to be a functional reality. Some conversation with Jack reaffirmed that opinion. IMO if most of the shooting you're going to be doing is well within 200 yards with the need to make an occasional shot beyond that distance, than an Aimpoint, lightweight gun, makes a better optic choice. If you're going to be doing significantly more shooting beyond 200 yards with the occasional need to shoot at CQB distances, or you have fairly rigorous precision requirements (SWAT/Sniper), than a heavier recce setup with variable optic might be a better way to go.

    The weapon in question was an LMT (single stage) lower, VLTOR VIS upper with Noveske N4 barrel, I was using a Viper PST. The main consideration involved was the issue of weight and eye placement. If I'm going to have to carry the extra weight, have to contend unforgiving eye relief/placement behind a magnified optic then I'm stepping up in caliber (i.e. 7.62) to a more dedicated precision weapon. Again ymmv, but for myself, I want the lightest, quickest setup that still gets the job done.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 12-20-11 at 18:52.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

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    Pics can be found here.

    I have a few more to filter through but this is the bulk of it. Piss poor lighting didn't help with taking any sort of action shots but it is what it is.

    I'll post up some thoughts on the class in a bit.

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