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Thread: first build trigger question

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    An aftermarket trigger (Geissele) is about 20-30% of the cost of a base rifle NIB. Do I get a 20-30% increase in performance? Not even close. I even get less performance at high speeds up close and I am not talking just split times.

    Does your average person get a 20-30% increase in performance? I would say no.

    Does a new shooter get that increase? No.

    Would they more than likely be much better off spending that money elsewhere, maybe even on ammunition and correct training / instruction? Definitely.

    Another member here gave a good definition. Have I ever missed a shot on a non magnified battle grade rifle that I feel I would have made with an aftermarket trigger? No.

    Have I ever made a shot on a non magnified battle grade rifle with an aftermarket trigger that I feel I would have missed with a USGI type trigger? No


    The car analogy is purely being spoiled. Let me use a better analogy in reference to 1911 triggers / shooters, since it involves firearms and more people here might relate to that especially since most people can't afford or may have never even driven a Porsche. If you can shoot a stock Glock trigger well, you can shoot or quickly learn to shoot a fine tuned 1911 trigger very very well or learn it extremely quickly. Now take someone who primarily shoots a fine tuned 1911 trigger and then place a Glock in their hands and watch them cry or whine about how bad that POS weapon and trigger is. Bottom line it takes much more work to be able to shoot the Glock trigger well. They can't get away with poor technique and slapping at the trigger. They need finer trigger control and other base fundamentals. Now if that same person has only learned to shoot a 1911 trigger, they are screwed if they shoot anything else. It takes a lot of work to reverse engineer that. So basically if you can shoot a stock Glock (or similar difficult DA trigger) and do it well, you can shoot just about anything well. Or you can learn it much quicker. Not the case the other way around.

    I get it fellas. I like nice things also. But it isn't always the best thing for the job or the best advice to give someone. I know some people might have a 911 for a first car, but they are missing out on a great driving lesson that can be learned from a manual transmission and perhaps no power steering and no power brakes. If I can drive that POS very well and compete, I will outdrive most 911 owners with little time behind the wheel of the 911. Not likely the other way around.
    Those are NOT good definitions..... There is absolutely no way you can make that statement unless all your shooting is 15 yards and under on a large target. I'm sure theres been a time that you've jerked the GI trigger pulling you off the target where a lighter crisper break would have gotten you a hit. Maybe you dont "feel" it would have but that doesnt mean much.

    People upgrade too $100+ stocks all the time.....What so bad about a CAR stock that would get you 10-15% less hits???

    Since when is the cost of proficiency directly proportional to the cost of a new rifle anyway??? Do the guys who pay $800 for their 7th training class that basically covers the same thing all the sudden become 80% better? I dont hear anyone calling that a bad idea. The answer is no but even if that $800 makes them 2% more proficient that may be their life. Same idea with GA triggers.

    On a side note.....Since 3 gun competitors etc. are extremely concerned with their proficiency i am wondering if the majority are using stock GI triggers or something more expensive in their Ar's? (i honestly dont know the answer to this) Nobody questions GA triggers reliability.
    Last edited by Dirtyboy333; 12-21-11 at 23:42.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtyboy333 View Post
    I always hear that a nice trigger wont make a bad shooter an expert or whatever.....Who the hell in here is suggesting that it would??? I've never heard anyone say that.
    ....
    Right, but that is what some here will tell anyone even mentioning buying a trigger.
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtyboy333 View Post
    Those are NOT good definitions..... There is absolutely no way you can make that statement unless all your shooting is 15 yards and under on a large target. I'm sure theres been a time that you've jerked the GI trigger pulling you off the target where a lighter crisper break would have gotten you a hit. Maybe you dont "feel" it would have but that doesnt mean much.
    How I feel doesn't mean much? How I feel often entails calling shots, assessing my own performance, analyzing video, getting feed back from others etc and that means nothing? Interesting hypothesis. How a shooter "feels" should mean a heck of a lot. Quite frankly on a non magnified battle type rifle with perhaps 2-3 MOA accuracy, it is very difficult to say that the USGI trigger was at fault. I am not saying that my trigger manipulation didn't suck, perhaps I rushed hand / finger placement and jerked it etc, but it really is hard to say that a heavier USGI trigger caused the issue. So yes, I can say what I said above.

    Now if I am using a precision rifle, with a magnified optic at long distances, I can call shots with much more accuracy via my sight picture through the magnified scope when the shots broke and can match that with results on target. In these instances I may be able to attribute results to poor trigger manipulation and possibly relate that to a heavy trigger pull. I actually call shots all the time with any weapon. How I "feel" means everything.

    People upgrade too $100+ stocks all the time.....What so bad about a CAR stock that would get you 10-15% less hits???
    A CAR stock gets you 10-15% less hits? You might need more correct repetition of training.

    Since when is the cost of proficiency directly proportional to the cost of a new rifle anyway??? Do the guys who pay $800 for their 7th training class that basically covers the same thing all the sudden become 80% better? I dont hear anyone calling that a bad idea. The answer is no but even if that $800 makes them 2% more proficient that may be their life. Same idea with GA triggers.
    Has this guy been to 7 training classes? Is he even that familiar with this platform and trigger enough to come to a conclusion. Heck the OP was even rational enough to understand that his budget was tight and that perhaps he should spend his money on something more important like a good BCG or good back up irons. I don't get what is with people who suggest $200-$300 triggers to guys who are new to the platform, on a budget and perhaps his skill levels or experience are not advanced. I mean cmon fellas lets give some reasonable advice given the foundation of the questions.

    On a side note.....Since 3 gun competitors etc. are extremely concerned with their proficiency i am wondering if the majority are using stock GI triggers or something more expensive in their Ar's? (i honestly dont know the answer to this) Nobody questions GA triggers reliability.
    The higher level of proficiency especially on a competitive scale and people start chasing hundreds even thousandths of seconds, however 99% of shooters will never be in that realm. I must admit that I am one of those types that tries to shave tenths or hundreds of seconds everywhere I can, so I definitely get the spending money on high end parts that give seemingly minimal returns, when in reality tenths, hundreds or thousandths of seconds might make all the difference for some shooters. I am currently doing a purpose built 3 gun rifle with this S3G trigger. I am interested in it because it is supposed to be more single stage trigger like, which I prefer. I truly feel that for myself at least, single stage triggers are more consistent without a shortstroke at extremely fast speeds. This trigger would definitely not be my choice for my own critical use rifles in this platform. To be honest, I am wholly underwhelmed with my SSA in a non magnified battle type carbine, or even a competition gun, but I am still searching, therefore the S3G and the SSA now pulls precision rifle duties. This is not a knock on Geissele as they produce the most robust and best triggers in this class.

  4. #44
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    At the risk of re-igniting a very old debate on the short black rifle (or these days, the short, FDE/sage/coyote rifle)...

    Define your use, let that guide your equipment selection.

    Most of the folks in these parts are running 16" and shorter guns. They're running military-grade ammo out of military-grade weapons. The guns are meant to be shot from non-ideal positions (not bench-rest), in non-optimal lighting conditions, under stressful conditions.

    There's nothing -bad- about running upgraded triggers on these types of guns, unless the trigger impairs reliability, or is so light that it incurs liability. However, a trigger upgrade is one of those things that a shooter should understand -why- they're doing...beyond just a vague sense of "it'll make the gun better.".

    Upgrades for ergos (stocks, grips, hand guards, selectors) are pretty easy to justify. You'll feel the benefit every time the mount and manipulate the rifle. Efficiency upgrades (RDS, redi-mags, etc) pay their benefits every time you acquire sights, reload, etc. Aesthetic upgrades (as taboo as those are) make you smile every time you see your rifle.

    Trigger? Of course...that pays every time you launch one down-range. However, for a trigger to be a true -upgrade-...(as opposed to just a "mod"), it has to improve something in the eyes or performance of the shooter.

    In short, identify that something is actually a problem, before setting about the task of "fixing" it.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtyboy333 View Post
    On a side note.....Since 3 gun competitors etc. are extremely concerned with their proficiency i am wondering if the majority are using stock GI triggers or something more expensive in their Ar's? (i honestly dont know the answer to this) Nobody questions GA triggers reliability.
    NEVER base an equipment choice on what those Mo's are doing... unless you're building a competition gun too.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkey71 View Post
    It was quite amazing. Much more predictable. Yes it's lighter, but the ability to know when it will break is the biggest gain for me for longer shots. For rapid shots it was lighter but not "hair" by any means.

    Harold
    This sums it up for me. I am really only able to tell a real difference in the pull at longer distances. Of course, I am a USGI trigger guy and am rather fond of the gritty singles for my work. The Geissele triggers are worth their weight in gold if you do any kind of competitive shooting.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    How I feel doesn't mean much? How I feel often entails calling shots, assessing my own performance, analyzing video, getting feed back from others etc and that means nothing? Interesting hypothesis. How a shooter "feels" should mean a heck of a lot. Quite frankly on a non magnified battle type rifle with perhaps 2-3 MOA accuracy, it is very difficult to say that the USGI trigger was at fault. I am not saying that my trigger manipulation didn't suck, perhaps I rushed hand / finger placement and jerked it etc, but it really is hard to say that a heavier USGI trigger caused the issue. So yes, I can say what I said above.

    Now if I am using a precision rifle, with a magnified optic at long distances, I can call shots with much more accuracy via my sight picture through the magnified scope when the shots broke and can match that with results on target. In these instances I may be able to attribute results to poor trigger manipulation and possibly relate that to a heavy trigger pull. I actually call shots all the time with any weapon. How I "feel" means everything. That's my point. There's no way to possibly know if you would have had a hit with a better trigger or not when considering all the rounds you have put down range.

    A CAR stock gets you 10-15% less hits? You might need more correct repetition of training. Not the point I was making but nevermind

    Has this guy been to 7 training classes? Is he even that familiar with this platform and trigger enough to come to a conclusion. Heck the OP was even rational enough to understand that his budget was tight and that perhaps he should spend his money on something more important like a good BCG or good back up irons. I don't get what is with people who suggest $200-$300 triggers to guys who are new to the platform, on a budget and perhaps his skill levels or experience are not advanced. I mean cmon fellas lets give some reasonable advice given the foundation of the questions.

    As you were doing with the "x%=x% proficiency" etc., I was speaking generally and not particularly to the OP's situation and I'm sure you knew that. Question remains.

    The .
    Markm: I know and I have nothing to do with competitive shooting but when talking high-speed/proficiency etc. They seem to be light years ahead of the Mil. I've seen experts on here mention this many times.
    Last edited by Dirtyboy333; 12-23-11 at 00:20.

  8. #48
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    Dirtyboy, if you cannot see how it may not be possible to be able to absolutely blame the pull weight on a trigger as opposed to other potential variables such as inherent accuracy of the weapon, non-magnified optics and shooting conditions then I really can't explain much more to you. It is virtually impossible to absolutely blame the heavier trigger with so many potential variables on a non magnified, battle type rifle with less inherent accuracy. Now with precision shooting with a more accurate weapon, with magnification and from a rested position combined with high levels of shooters skill, we can more accurately eliminate other variables or narrow down what those errors MAY be.

    I get the point your attempting to make, but to blame the heavier trigger pull by default or to attempt to assume any statistical margin of error is not reasonable IMO. We have to give the experienced and trained shooter some consideration also. If I could definitely blame a heavier trigger pull I would. Fact of the matter in a non-magnified, battle grade weapon it is nearly impossible for me to strictly blame a heavier trigger. There are just too many other contributing factors that could be to blame. Again, give me a more precise weapon, magnification, from a rested position and I am in a better position to possibly blame a heavier trigger pull. But again by statistical default I am not going to assign that blame across the board, when I am not completely sure myself. At this point in time we are ABSOLUTELY splitting hairs in a USGI trigger vs a match grade trigger. If that is worth $250+ to a shooter by all means spend your money how you want. Now I am not just talking to you in particular, but please people STOP preaching this crap about triggers in a blanket manner. LOOK at what the original question is and PLEASE attempt to guide people in the right direction. Thank goodness the OP was smart enough to see through the BS and come up with the conclusion that perhaps his tight budget was better spent elsewhere. I own enough of my own fancy triggers, but my own passion doesn't get in the way of practical advice to new shooters.

    Here are some of my thoughts on the topic. In this video I actually run a USGI trigger faster than the SSA. I also short stroke the 2 stage which really isn't too uncommon for myself at high rates of speed and I consider myself to be a pretty good shooter.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbOct0zf6_M

    In this video, it would virtually be impossible for me to attempt to place blame on a heavier pull trigger for any types of misses in this manner of shooting on a non magnified battle grade rifle. If you can place blame on a heavier trigger pull, well then you are a much better shooter than I am and more power to you.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EH0AwYGsY

  9. #49
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    Fair enough.....and yes I completely agree with you. Maybe I did a poor job at explaining my point but what you just described above is precisely what I've been trying to say which is: there's NO way to know if you would or wouldn't have gotten anymore or less hits with or without a fancy trigger.

    That is why I said that the definitions you gave a couple posts above are "not good definitions" and "don't mean much". I'm strictly talking about the definitions that you said you heard "another shooter say about how you don't feel you have ever missed a shot due to a GI trigger. I'm just saying that there's so many variables that the definition isn't worth mentioning.

    Im sorry if it seemed that I was questioning your shooting abilities when I said "feel" bc that's not what I meant. I know that you are in fact an extremely "in tune" shooter.

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