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Thread: BCM Filthy 14 ??

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what it means. I have read that it's just a cheap way of making barrels, but I don't know exactly what it means.
    It's not cheap at all. It is efficient. You don't want to know what a hammer forging barrel setup costs up front.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    It's not cheap at all. It is efficient. You don't want to know what a hammer forging barrel setup costs up front.

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    Approximately $2,000,000 FN Herstal has two of them. They are a front-end heavy investment, but once that investment is made they are a good value for a high-volume barrel producer.

    I said I don't know "exactly" what cold hammer forging actually, specifically means. I didn't say I knew nothing on the topic.
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    Approximately $2,000,000 FN Herstal has two of them. They are a front-end heavy investment, but once that investment is made they are a good value for a high-volume barrel producer.

    I said I don't know "exactly" what cold hammer forging actually, specifically means. I didn't say I knew nothing on the topic.
    Then you need to be more clear. Stating, "I've read it's just a cheap way of making barrels" sounds pretty uninformed unless you qualify the statement.

    Obviously you're not ignorant on the topic. There are some videos on YouTube that show the machines in action. Let me see if I can find one for you.

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    Last edited by BufordTJustice; 06-14-14 at 14:21.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    Then you need to be more clear. Stating, "I've read it's just a cheap way of making barrels" sounds pretty uninformed unless you qualify the statement.

    Obviously you're not ignorant on the topic. There are some videos on YouTube that show the machines in action. Let me see if I can find one for you.

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    I'm ignorant on what it actually is, but I have read about it's costs and applications.

    I'm watching the videos now.

    It seems like it's just a process of literally pounding the cold steel, which toughens the steel, but also changes it's shape. I have also read that it reduces stress points in the steel. Is there some sort of bore/rifling plug in the barrel when it is forged? I think I'm still confused as to what, exactly, hammer forging is meant to do. Create the rifling inside the barrel? How would pounding the outside of the barrel create rifling inside it? Create the barrel and the rifling at the same time?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0
    Last edited by M&P15T; 06-14-14 at 14:38.
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    I said I don't know "exactly" what cold hammer forging actually, specifically means. I didn't say I knew nothing on the topic.
    A while back I posted links to an army analysis of Steyr process hammer forged barrels in M2, M14, and M16.

    Pretty dramatic results, primarily smoothness (reduced fouling), life, and accuracy.

    Short version: the Steyr process changes the crystal structure of the metal. Same reason forged lowers are stronger than billet.

    I think some of the cheapness rep is old news from Remington trying a us competitor process with mixed results back in the late 70s early 80s.



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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    A while back I posted links to an army analysis of Steyr process hammer forged barrels in M2, M14, and M16.

    Pretty dramatic results, primarily smoothness (reduced fouling), life, and accuracy.

    Short version: the Steyr process changes the crystal structure of the metal. Same reason forged lowers are stronger than billet.

    I think some of the cheapness rep is old news from Remington trying a us competitor process with mixed results back in the late 70s early 80s.



    Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
    I can see in the videos that there are automated weights/hammers that pound on the outside of the barrel. I can see how that part of the process works. What I do not understand is how the rifling is getting cut, what is happening inside the bore.

    Is there a 2nd part to the hammer forging process that is going on at the same time that can't be seen in the videos? Is there some sort of tool that is inside the bore and cutting the rifling at the same time as the forging process is happening on the outside of the barrel? Is the rifling cut after forging? Before forging?
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    I can see in the videos that there are automated weights/hammers that pound on the outside of the barrel. I can see how that part of the process works. What I do not understand is how the rifling is getting cut, what is happening inside the bore.

    Is there a 2nd part to the hammer forging process that is going on at the same time that can't be seen in the videos? Is there some sort of tool that is inside the bore and cutting the rifling at the same time as the forging process is happening on the outside of the barrel? Is the rifling cut after forging? Before forging?
    My understanding is that there is a mandrel inside the barrel, and as the steel is hammered from the outside the rifling is formed on the mandrel, and that there is no "cutting" of the rifling at all.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight Again View Post
    My understanding is that there is a mandrel inside the barrel, and as the steel is hammered from the outside the rifling is formed on the mandrel, and that there is no "cutting" of the rifling at all.
    A "mandrel" is a piece of metal that is the exact dimensions as the desired bore and rifling? So the bore is...bored, some base-line rifling is cut, and then the mandrel inserted and the hammer forging process begun? Or is the bore drilled over-sized, the mandrel inserted, and then the barrel is hammered into shape around the mandrel which then creates the rifling as the metal is formed around it?

    ETA; If the mandrel is a "negative" of the desired bore and rifling, then making the mandrel must be incredibly important. For a 20" 5.56MM barrel, the mandrel would be a 20" long, .223/5.56MM diameter metal rod with raised, thin areas that create the rifling. If this is true, then making the mandrel would be incredibly difficult as it must be very rigid, very hard/stiff, with extremely precise tolerances.

    It would then make sense that the final exterior barrel profile and the chamber would be cut after the forging process.

    Any metal manufacturing process specialists that can chime in with better info?
    Last edited by M&P15T; 06-14-14 at 15:13.
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    A "mandrel" is a piece of metal that is the exact dimensions as the desired bore and rifling? So the bore is...bored, some base-line rifling is cut, and then the mandrel inserted and the hammer forging process begun? Or is the bore drilled over-sized, the mandrel inserted, and then the barrel is hammered into shape around the mandrel which then creates the rifling as the metal is formed around it?

    ETA; If the mandrel is a "negative" of the desired bore and rifling, then making the mandrel must be incredibly important. For a 20" 5.56MM barrel, the mandrel would be a 20" long, .223/5.56MM diameter metal rod with raised, thin areas that create the rifling. If this is true, then making the mandrel would be incredibly difficult as it must be very rigid, very hard/stiff, with extremely precise tolerances.

    It would then make sense that the final exterior barrel profile and the chamber would be cut after the forging process.

    Any metal manufacturing process specialists that can chime in with better info?
    The second description.

    The mandrel can be used to form just the rifling or the rifling and the chamber during the hammer forging process.

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    Last edited by BufordTJustice; 06-14-14 at 15:19.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    The second description.

    The mandrel can be used to form just the rifling or the rifling and the chamber during the hammer forging process.

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    O.k.....so how the hell is the mandrel made? I can't imagine how precise it has to be made, and how hard the metal is that it must be made from.

    And wouldn't the rifling end-up being the tougher part of the barrel, instead of the raised surface? Or does the steel still flow enough to form itself in a uniform manner even when cold?
    Last edited by M&P15T; 06-14-14 at 15:25.
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

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