B&T APC9

[OTD]

Interesting. I did not know.
BT is operating remotely and does not show up at public gun shows. They have their own inhouse show limited for selected M&P staff. This is probably one reason there’s not too much technical feedback on this APC 5.56 prototype nor how it is performing in standardized tests and how well the over all design with all its screw joints can be handled from a person with minimal training. BT has have the capabilities for sure to build something well, the question is who is going to buy it for a premium price Swiss products normally cost. Just form looking at the design, it’s probably going to be a niche product for a specialized market. We will see.

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

The APC is conventional blowback shooting form an open bolt and and has a hydraulic recoil buffer and has a Sauer barrel and is using Steyr 69 type magazines. The MPX has a rotary bolt, driven from a short stroking gas system. The APC is available already (MSRP = 2980$) and has a good feedback. It shoots like any other carbine in its class but its modularity is better then the HK types or the FAMAE, but over all it's nothing really new except for it's looks.

@Oreaopla
I'm a little bit puzzled about the "unsolved issues" the MPX should have posted above. Statments like "unsovled issues" always sound like a big deal, but are pretty worthless unless the problems are pointed out at? We tend to forget that SIGSauer is operation in an international cooperaton of gun manufacturers with lot's of experience with SMG's and gas systems. The MPX is merely a copy past desing of former designs but with an update look. So what could the "unsolved issue" really be, except from "it's new, it's not an MP5 clone, and we don't know anything about it yet"?.

The issues weren't explained to me so I can't relay them on the forum. I hope the system works as I would like to have one myself but Sig USA has managed to screw up many existed and reliable firearms. I have first hand knowledge of their P226 crapping out, as issued to me and other officers, when I was working in NYC. I don't currently trust any of their firearms until I see them function reliably for many many rounds.

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

Something I forgot to mention but the APC9 uses M16/AR15 compatible fire control components.

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

Apologies for the necro post but these are hitting shelves now. Stocks and mags are forthcoming and there are some more interesting products coming very soon.

[KalashniKEV]

Apologies for the necro post but these are hitting shelves now. Stocks and mags are forthcoming and there are some more interesting products coming very soon.

I handled one last weekend.

It reminded me one-hundred-percent exactly of some of the Taurus CT9 mods I've seen.

Seriously... I have no clue in the world what makes these so expensive... with the current market for PCCs- Scorpion EVO, MPX, MKE and POF MP5s, I can't see anyone ever buying one of these .

It's a straight blowback gun!

If I were B&T, I'd figure out a way to turn these out for under $1K and make them take Colt Pattern SMG mags.

Until then, no thanks.

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

I handled one last weekend.

It reminded me one-hundred-percent exactly of some of the Taurus CT9 mods I've seen.

Seriously... I have no clue in the world what makes these so expensive... with the current market for PCCs- Scorpion EVO, MPX, MKE and POF MP5s, I can't see anyone ever buying one of these .

It's a straight blowback gun!

If I were B&T, I'd figure out a way to turn these out for under $1K and make them take Colt Pattern SMG mags.

Until then, no thanks.

I will reserve my opinion for Taurus as I have little personal experience with them other than reports from customers and internet reviews here and there. That being said, I handled the guns at Shot show and put my money where my mouth is by ordering. They are quality guns much like the 550 series and are made by a Swiss company long known for precision firearms, mounts and accessories. Taurus is famous now for making inexpensive guns and for agreeing to a multi million dollar settlement for making and selling unsafe firearms. I leave Taurus at that.

As for the MP5 platform, the POF and MKE guns are well regarded but B&T has also made those guns in the past with great success and they were better quality. They also make much of the OEM components for HK and other manufacturers. The MPX is having teething issues with pins walking out and the MCX, as reported by Larry Vickers himself in another thread, is promising but has issues and needs alot more work. The EVO is well liked but is polymer; not a negative but certainly cheaper than aluminum.

Now I certainly want to stock the MPX, MCX and EVO both as post samples for my agency contacts as well as sbr samples for me.

The fact is that you're comparing a very precisely made Swiss, mostly metal firearm with guns that have issues or are polymer, which is much cheaper. Those locales also have cheaper labor costs and therefore are cheaper to make and import.

I think the best comparison I can make is Glock versus HK for firearms and perhaps a Porsche or Audi versus a Ford. Casio versus Rolex...both can serve you well and do awesome things but some are higher grade.

The 550 series guns, at least the ones that weren't screwed up with excessive engraving and used obsolete folding sights like the Sig Sauer imports, sold extremely well to fans of top grade guns.

If you look at the Bren and Scar, they're in a similar boat with expensive but well made guns. There is a market and people will buy them. I'm a small dealer and only placed one order worth almost $20,000. I'm almost completely sold out. There are dealers placing multiple orders in the hundreds of thousands including guns, parts and accessories because they're selling out. It would stand to reason that people want them and the guns are selling.

[kunc]

Some people don't mind spending money for high quality firearms packed with features. What I think is overpriced.... Zenith/MKE charging over $1700 for a licensed MP5 copy made in Turkey.

[KalashniKEV]

Some people don't mind spending money for high quality firearms packed with features. What I think is overpriced.... Zenith/MKE charging over $1700 for a licensed MP5 copy made in Turkey.

Which is funny, because I think the Zenith guns are the absolute best thing going in the PCC/Semi-Subgun game. POF is probably a slightly better value though.

The point of moving to simple blowback guns, molded polymer parts, and extruded receivers was to reduce cost. This was the struggle that spawned the UMP and others.

I would welcome the low cost P26 before considering the APC-9:



Or, better yet, the MAC-like KH9 with Suomi mags:



B&T needs to enter the market with a product they can make SALES on and get a foothold.

With the other offerings in the marketplace and their pricing, it's going to be very tough to lead with the APC9.

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

Which is funny, because I think the Zenith guns are the absolute best thing going in the PCC/Semi-Subgun game. POF is probably a slightly better value though.

The point of moving to simple blowback guns, molded polymer parts, and extruded receivers was to reduce cost. This was the struggle that spawned the UMP and others.

I would welcome the low cost P26 before considering the APC-9:



Or, better yet, the MAC-like KH9 with Suomi mags:



B&T needs to enter the market with a product they can make SALES on and get a foothold.

With the other offerings in the marketplace and their pricing, it's going to be very tough to lead with the APC9.

Considering it took me over 4 months to get my guns in and the fact that I'm almost completely sold out, I find that statement is not true. Larger dealers have been placing orders several times the size of mine and are also completely sold out so the pricing is not a factor. These are selling well and anyone who holds them and understands quality, will realize these are worth the price of admission. If we were in Switzerland, no one would complain about pricing because they're not paying import tariff costs and paying in a weaker currency.

These are extremely high quality guns, and frankly, if you hope to see the P26 and KH9 (and other guns I can't comment on at this point) you should hope people keep buying them and/or buy some yourself. They are making large strides at B&T AG to introduce more of their products to the US market and, like any business, will want to see adequate returns on their investments. So far they're seeing the huge interest and sales so we should hope the trend continues.
I may be biased as a dealer but I'm putting my own money where my mouth is by ordering more guns and I also plan to keep samples of each gun for myself as they are great guns. That's way more than my .02 cents of course.

[Bret]

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm considering one of these and have a related question. What sec922(r) parts does this firearm have if it were to be made in to a SBR?
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

I have a pretty good idea, but I'd like input from others who are familiar with the design to confirm. I don't want to get in to a debate as to whether sec922(r) applies to SBR's or not, so I'd appreciate it if we could leave that out of the discussion.