Barrier Blind vs Fragmentation

[ASH556]

In a HD rifle, what is more important: Barrier Penetration or fragmentation? I'm assuming that if a load is good for barrier penetration, that also increases it's likelihood of over-penetration through and out of the house. Then again, if Mr. bad guy is driving away with my wife/kids, I'd like it to go through auto glass.

Is there a best balance between barrier penetration and fragmentation for HD?

Thanks!

[Altair]

Doc has stated in the past that the recommended barrier blind rifle loads do not penetrate interior walls more than duty handgun rounds. So basically if you are ok with using your 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP in your home you are not running any greater risk using good barrier blind loads in .223/5.56.

The 50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills is consistent and has near ideal 15" of penetration in gel while still providing good barrier performance. Perhaps that is the answer you are looking for.

ETA: Since I didn't directly answer your first question, the answer is barrier performance. I'm much more comfortable using a round that I know performs best across the widest array of variables (oblique target angles requiring bullets to pass through appendages, heavy clothing, or other barriers) than a fragmenting round that may or may not be more lethal in a perfect frontal unobstructed shot but will definitely perform worse in other scenarios.

[CumbiaDude]

In a HD rifle, what is more important: Barrier Penetration or fragmentation?

How many barriers are the bad guys hiding behind? That answers the question.

Barrier penetration is more important for somebody like highway patrol who deals nearly exclusively with people near vehicles. For HD, it'd be less important. How important just depends on how likely you think it is that you need to shoot through something, and what that something is.

Personally I wouldn't ever wanna shoot at a moving vehicle with both friendlies and unfriendlies in it. Even if your aim at a moving target is spot-on, even the most "blind" load can get deflected by the large chunks of metal involved in vehicles.

As for overpenetration, you're much more likely to completely miss the target than hit somebody, have the round go through that somebody, and then hit another somebody you didn't want to hit.

So think about the most likely scenarios where you need to shoot and if you need to go through anything. That's what I say, at least

[C-grunt]

Up until recently I was on the side thata good fragmenting round like say a 55grn HP was better. But a recent OIS we had showed that the fragmenting rounds are not the way to go. They shot the bad guy 11 times with the rifle and he lived. Several of the shots failed to do significant damage after passing through limbs and a car side window. But then again the officer had been shot by the guy prior so his aim might have been off a bit.

[Generalpie]

It is important to have a round that performs well under as many circumstances as possible. Since you are not limited to a specific bullet design as the .mil is you can choose whatever you want.

The barrier blind loads have a proven track record and perform very well in all testing.

I wouldn't feel bad having a primary house gun loaded with any loading off doc's list of approved rounds, regardless if it is a barrier load or not. Since work in a patrol capacity I deal with vehicles a lot and a barrier round is a no brainer, plus it is what I get issued. I don't change out ammo based on the mission either, being total comfortable on an entry of a building with the same barrier rounds.

[Ironman8]

I totally get the "be prepared for any scenario" and "if you're ok with a pistol in a home defense role, then a barrier blind round would be ok too"....but when it comes to missing the target (which WILL happen in a high stress situation) and knowing what I know about pistol or barrier blind ballistics, I would stick with a good, proven fragmenting round...especially if you're in an apartment.

If you're worried about the fight going outside where you might have to shoot through something, then you could always have a mag loaded up with barrier blind attached somehow to the rifle. Zero with the barrier blind and use the fragmenting round inside the home where engagement distances would be within the range that you have to account for the offset, regardless of ammo used.

I'll stick with my TAP T2...and if I ever have to be in an apartment, I might look into the BH RRLP rounds. I need to do some more research on them, but they might be a pretty damn good round for apartment use where you have, at best, two pieces of sheetrock between you and a sue-happy neighbor.

[bernieb90]

How many barriers are the bad guys hiding behind? That answers the question.

Barrier penetration is more important for somebody like highway patrol who deals nearly exclusively with people near vehicles. For HD, it'd be less important. How important just depends on how likely you think it is that you need to shoot through something, and what that something is.

Look around your house/apartment for a minute. picture all the places that you would attempt to take cover in the even someone was in the home shooting at you. Door jambs, solid core wood doors, heavy furniture all make good cover or concealment depending on the load you are using. Considering that a 9mm FMJ (common for bad guys to carry) pistol bullet will easily penetrate barriers better than light weight .223 bullets we can see that what can be cover for the bad guy becomes concealment for you.

All the arguments about not needing to shoot through cover for civilians simply don't hold water. Imagine how much of a body is visible if a guy is hiding behind a door jamb firing a gun with just his arm and small part of the head showing. Unless he is a magician the rest of him is in the space behind the door jamb, and wall , and you have every right to shoot at it.

Barrier blind loads allow a person to use their carbine to its full potential, and stop a dangerous threat as quickly as possible regarless of whether the subject is behind cover.

[CumbiaDude]

I didn't say civilians won't need to shoot through a barrier, though I see how it could be read that way

What I meant is this: If you live in a house with a lot of brick walls, or cinderblocks, or heavy timbers, lots of full file cabinets, solid wood furniture, etc... you will be more likely to shoot through barriers than if your house consists of drywall and open spaces. Each person has to look at where they are most likely to need to use the weapon, then select the best ammo for that specific environment.

[bp7178]

I used to think the barrier blind loads were just for shooting through stuff.

Then I came across a series of gel shots in a document put out by ATK, the .223 Rifle Data Book.

For example, the 77gr SMK in bare gel penetrated 16", which is ideal using the FBI standards.

The same round, going through heavy clothing, dropped to 7".

One of the more impressive rounds you can actually buy for a reasonable price, is the .223 pressure 64gr Gold Dot Bonded Soft Point. The penetration ranged from 19" to 11.5", the latter being shot through steel.

[DocGKR]

Well engineered barrier blind loads penetrate in the ideal 12-18" range, same as good quality duty handgun ammunition. After reviewing many civilian self-defense encounters, LE OIS incidents, and military firefights over the last decade, in aggregate, it turns out loads that offer ideal terminal performance (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323):

-- Penetration of 12 to 18 inches
-- No impact AOA induced variations
-- Blind to barriers
-- No deviation from shot line after impact
-- Minimal fragmentation
-- Consistent terminal performance from 0 – 300 meters
-- Sufficient accuracy to hit threat targets out to 600 meters

have worked much better than loads that do not meet these requirements.