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Thread: Switch to A5 System?

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tootsies View Post
    Does this system work well with a sbr? or am I better off just sticking with an h2?
    Its very good for sbr's it will slow down cyclic rate and increase dwell time allowing the pressure to go down some

  2. #212
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    springs and mass

    I don't understand why there are so many questions about the same old dilemma of reducing carrier contact speed at rear of receiver for sake of feeling softer vs. loss of potential reliability, the stroke isn't increased by the addition of length for the tube. The only advantage is the extended condition of the buttstock.

    The main spring in a firearm is compressed pretty far, this is not good for a spring if you want it to keep its stiffness. Increasing the length so the spring doesn't come as close to its solid height (fully compressed) is the only advantage I see.

    *At fully extended, the stock can take more of a wack perpendicular to the axis and would be interesting to see it loaded at that point, I've heard all good of Vltor stocks in tough tests though.

    Those flatwire springs suck, I don't think they are all the same length and the thing needs to be thrown in a tumbler for a week to remove the really sharp outer edge of the spring to prevent scraping/gouging. Springco is good stuff.

    Increasing the mass of any buffer makes it shoot softer, it also makes it one beat closer to shitting itself with being dirty, weak ammo, or otherwise weak gun ejecting already at 5 with slow rpm.

    So any heavy buffer is going to do the shooting soft aspect, if I were testing this I would be concerned about mirroring the carbine performance. The near solid height of the carbine spring provides for a great force to jump from the bolt catch. So full magazines on bolt catch would be the test. I have a massive test magazine that will very clearly do a fully loaded bolt catch drop on carbine but not full length stock systems.

    The only software I have seen for springs are simple. If you work with spring designers they have more advanced software, flatwound springs are an entire different ballgame. Springs are ideally linear with force except near the runout conditions of solid height and free length.

    So there is no way you cannot mimic the A5 shooting with a change in your existing system:
    1)You can get a buffer so heavy your gun can't cycle in the already used envelope of the standard tube. So you can certainly get one that lets the carrier get really really close to the rear of the receiver, or maybe letting the elastomer just barely touch.
    2)You can get a stronger spring, or weaker spring inside the envelope of the tube of the standard.

    *buffer and mass*
    potential and kinetic energy
    When the bg is at full rear stroke, its energy is all in potential and is calculated by the spring and mass. You need ample mass to provide enough momentum to get cartridges from magazines. So as you go from very light to very heavy you will find a point where the spring eventually just can't do crap with the heavy mass. There is also so light you're just not delivering enough momentum.

    I've been on designs of belt feeds, and other high cap systems and you always want more energy than a traditional AR, Belts hold rounds tightly, you've gotta wack them out, big mags have more force and you can't have something that will peter out on you. The farther you get away the wierder things get. H2 + new spring is the best thing going for nearly everything.

    I like the PWS system with a pad at the rear of the tube.

    Pigtails and Fatboy tubes do what most of you are describing, or even an H3. Has anyone that has tested this ever tested a FERFRANS system, I know it isn't even remotely the same but I like its merits.
    Last edited by armatac; 02-13-12 at 06:20. Reason: goof

  3. #213
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    Well armatac, im glad u know more than VLTOR

  4. #214
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    I would not get the A5 because once you shoot it you'll want one for your other ARs they are kind of like Doritos.
    Last edited by porider; 02-10-12 at 19:35.
    Unlike Spandex, Liberty is a Right NOT a Privilege.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    Well armatac, im glad u know more than VLTOR
    I do not see a word against VLTOR design in armatac's post. But it may be my poor English. But I see arguments against randomly putting "magic springs" and "super-duper heavy buffers" in carbine tube to "emulate" A5.
    Montrala

    I'm sponsored competition shooter representing Heckler&Koch, Kahles, Hornady and Typhoon Defence brands in Poland, so I can be biased

    http://montrala.blogspot.com

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by montrala View Post
    I do not see a word against VLTOR design in armatac's post. But it may be my poor English. But I see arguments against randomly putting "magic springs" and "super-duper heavy buffers" in carbine tube to "emulate" A5.
    unless im reading it wrong, hes basicaly saying you can take a H3 buffer and a stronger spring and it will give you the A5 system?

  7. #217
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    It won't though.

  8. #218
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    From Phreakish's post (#183) on page 10 of this thread:

    "This spring alone also wouldn't result in an 'A5 equivalent' due to the internal changes we've made to the buffer itself (and not just the silencing spring). I would guess that bolt bounce would be more significant, or at least counter-recoil would be more significant due to the greater compressed load. "

    Also see this post:
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.p...&postcount=149

    And this post:
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.p...&postcount=154


    It is abundantly clear that one cannot replicate the A5 system using a carbine receiver extension.

    I've experimented with all springco springs (White, Blue, Red), H->H3 buffers, and I actually bought a SS buffer from Heavy buffers (with 3 internal tungsten weights, it weighs 7.1oz).

    I now have the A5 and I can tell you definitively that the A5 does things that the above carbine combos DO NOT do. I tried to get this level of performance in a carbine RE...it's just not possible.

    Either with recoil reduction OR with reliability.

    Example, the HB dot net SS buffer with 2 internal tungsten weights weighed 6.5oz. Using this with a Springco Blue spring meant I would not be able to reliably cycle almost any type of .223 pressure ammo. NATO pressure was fine. However, I have been able to run the Vltor A5H3 6.1oz buffer and A5H4 6.85oz buffer on ALL ammo types and 100% reliability. And the A5 system still manages to shoot noticeably smoother even running with the lighter 6.1oz buffer. I even think the stock ~5.4oz A5 buffer was smoother than any other buffer setup in a carbine RE.

    I personally deviate from most reviewers in that I am now running the A5H4 buffer with 100% reliability, like Andrew over at Vuurwapen Blog. However, both he and I are using NiB carriers.

    I can tell you that the A5H4 setup is a revelation. I am familiar with the laws of physics and of the law of energy conservation. However when my petite little wife shoots my gun with the A5, SHE just doesn't move as much. And boy does she notice this as well.

  9. #219
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    I think vltor makes the greatest gear. I didn't mean to be anti vltor by any means. I had really never read into the a5 and was hoping vltor came out with the mass adjustible buffer.
    I think this system has merit because a spring has more room so it can operate in the normal stroke with appropriate force and not approach solid height which is harmful to spring life. I think more main springs are run past their limits and their limits are lower than they seem.
    If there was significant statistical evidence on accuracy increase I am sure its related directly to mass increase and spring pre-load.
    if you can take the mass of the bc and the total mass of the buffer and have a bc and buffer with same mass without some of it reciprocating internally,and capable of FA without bolt bounce you have improved the ar.
    If you increased the stroke, ultimax once again, you'll see great advantages.

  10. #220
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    I have the A-5 on my goto carbine and it is the most forgiving collapsible stock AR I have ever seen as to ammo and operation conditions such as hot to cold temps. Runs anything you can fit in the magazines.

    Not only do you get to use the rifle weight buffer but the spring preload is higher with the A-5.

    Keep in mind the gas hits the carrier sooner with the carbine or middy system vs the rifle system and the heavier buffer combined with the increased spring preload keeps the carrier in battery longer and this is a good thing.

    Once the bolt carrier is in the feeding part of the cycle the increased mass helps overcome resistance from a dirty gun and ensures the round will be fully seated in the chamber and the carrier will return to battery.

    While I would not say the A-5 will cure acne it is an improved system over the standard carbine setup in reducing cyclic rate and increasing reliability over a broad spectrum of operating conditions and ammunition.

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