Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: Sub-MOA Barrel?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    38
    Feedback Score
    0

    Sub-MOA Barrel?

    At the risk of invoking the "Search the Archives" crowd (which I did), I'm looking to build a sub-MOA carbine or rifle in 5.56. Is there enough data available to be able to solidly quantify the wares currently for sale?


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,246
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    You're going to want to go with a Stainless barrel, first of all. While high quality chrome lined barrels certainly can be SUB-MOA accurate, Stainless barrels are as a rule more accurate.

    Second, this is obvious but keep in mind that the best barrel in the world won't make M855 shoot straight.

    There is a lot of good factory ammunition out there, like the Black Hills offerings featuring 77GR Sierra Match Kings to name one example. You will likely find that this (or similar) factory match ammunition will shoot under an MOA out of a high quality barrel. However, to achieve maximum precision, you will have to do some load development to suit your unique equipment.

    The following is a short list (NOT ALL INCLUSIVE) of just a few places to look at for good Stainless AR barrels. Some of the following are considered Match Barrels, some are high end production grade. Some are cut rifling, some are button rifled. You will need to do your own research to figure out exactly what you need and want (length, contour, etc). I'm just giving you a few places to look. In the right hands, with the right ammunition, all of the following are SUB-MOA capable:

    -WOA
    -Ranier Arms UltraMatch (From Shilen Blanks)
    - Krieger
    -Lilja
    - Hart
    - Douglas
    - Bartlein
    - BCM SS410
    - Noveske

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    91
    Feedback Score
    0
    I would take a serious look at the barrels that Wilson Combat has available in 5.56 at 16". They sell for $250 and they claim to be "match grade", whatever that means.
    16" lightweight profile 1/7 twist


    and 16" Recon Tactical barrel, 1/7 twist

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    38
    Feedback Score
    0
    I should have added to my original post that I will be reloading to find the right mixture for the rifle, and am leaning strongly toward the 77gr in either SMK or Nosler.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    11,706
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    My BCM 12.5" Stainless Steel upper shoots sub MOA groups at 300 yards with Hornady 53gr Superperformance.

    Food for thought.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,246
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by NavArch View Post
    and am leaning strongly toward the 77gr in either SMK or Nosler.
    Your barrel will do the leaning. You will have to be reactive rather than proactive. Fortunately, those rounds almost always shoot well from good barrels. But don't go buying them in mass just yet. Get the barrel in hand, try out the SMK's, some Hornady 75's, and some 68's. After you verify what you think you know (that the 77's will shoot best), go ahead and buy up the ingredients.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denver-ish, CO, USA
    Posts
    77
    Feedback Score
    0
    Are chrome-moly barrels--made to the same specifications--as accurate as stainless barrels?
    Last edited by Tactical Joke; 01-09-12 at 16:52.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,246
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tactical Joke View Post
    Are chrome-moly barrels--made to the same specifications--as accurate as stainless barrels?
    From Krieger:

    "Q: Which is better Chrome Moly or Stainless Steel?

    A: For the most part neither one is better than the other. The only difference we find is that sometimes the chrome moly might take a little longer to break-in and might have a little more affinity for copper or seems to show it easier. In terms of barrel life and accuracy, we can find no difference."

    From Lilja:

    "Q. What are the differences between chrome-moly barrels and stainless steel barrels?

    A. We buy our steels directly from the steel mills. Our steel is made to our specifications as far as chemistry and heat treatments are concerned. Our chrome-moly is a modified 4140 type steel and the stainless steel is type 416 with a few extra steps and tests in its manufacture. We have used steel of both types from several different mills and have settled on what we feel is the best available.

    The primary difference between the two types, as far as rifle barrels are concerned, is that chrome-moly can be blued and stainless steel cannot be using conventional methods. Rifle barrels made from stainless steel will last longer, as related to throat erosion, than chrome-moly. Stainless steel resists heat erosion better. Also we can get a slightly better internal finish when lapping with stainless steel.

    Approximately 90% of the barrels we manufacture are made from stainless steel. In our experience, most of the chrome-moly barrels we make go on high-grade custom hunting rifles that are going to have a nice custom made wood stock. And some shooters insist on having a blued barrel.

    An exception to the above is the large number of 50BMG barrels we make from chrome-moly. Our recommendation for steel choice with 50BMG barrels depends on the bullet type the shooter intends to use. If you are going to use conventional jacked bullets, such as the Hornady or ball ammunition, then the stainless steel barrels will probably last longer and foul less. But if your choice is one of the custom made lathe-turned bullets made from brass, bronze, copper, or even steel, then the chrome-moly barrels will probably last longer and give better accuracy. Please see our comments on moly coating and these types of bullets. If you plan to shoot both types of bullets then the chrome-moly barrels are a better choice."

    My perspective (by no means am I trying to place this on the same level as the above mentioned experts):


    Stainless is better for the vast majority of applications. There are only two reasons I can think of to go chrome-moly.

    1) If you are going to have the chrome-moly barrel nitrided properly (don't just let anybody do it...the bore can come out rough or the barrel extension / barrel interface can be compromised), you can get around the corrosion and earlier wear problem.

    2) If you are going to primarily be shooting in EXTREME cold...like -50 F cold. There's a lot of conflicting information out there on this. So I don't want to start a whole "thing" over this. People get riled up really easy on this topic. My personal opinion after research is that 416R loses a bit of fatigue resistance at subzero temperatures. With a heavy contour barrel I don't think it's significant but a lightweight stainless IMO will be prone to problems in extreme cold. Chrome-moly does not suffer at all in cold weather. I'm not saying not to shoot a stainless barrel in the winter...I do it all the time. I'm talking about an extreme environment.

    So, again, Stainless makes more sense for most people.
    Last edited by a0cake; 01-09-12 at 17:16.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    8,422
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    An unlined carbon steel barrel is not less accurate than a stainless steel barrel. The difference is in how the barrels hold their accuracy in the long run.

    Throat erosion causes a loss of accuracy. A carbon steel barrel erodes gradually and evenly and accuracy loss is slow but steady.

    A stainless steel barrel resists erosion better, but when it occurs, accuracy loss is sudden. This is because material lose is in chunks and is uneven. Match shooters like stainless steel barrels because they remain consistent through the shooting season.

    The advantage of stainless steel over carbon steel isn't accuracy but consistency because of how the throat erodes
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    171
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    From Krieger:

    "Q: Which is better Chrome Moly or Stainless Steel?

    A: For the most part neither one is better than the other. The only difference we find is that sometimes the chrome moly might take a little longer to break-in and might have a little more affinity for copper or seems to show it easier. In terms of barrel life and accuracy, we can find no difference."

    From Lilja:

    "Q. What are the differences between chrome-moly barrels and stainless steel barrels?

    A. We buy our steels directly from the steel mills. Our steel is made to our specifications as far as chemistry and heat treatments are concerned. Our chrome-moly is a modified 4140 type steel and the stainless steel is type 416 with a few extra steps and tests in its manufacture. We have used steel of both types from several different mills and have settled on what we feel is the best available.

    The primary difference between the two types, as far as rifle barrels are concerned, is that chrome-moly can be blued and stainless steel cannot be using conventional methods. Rifle barrels made from stainless steel will last longer, as related to throat erosion, than chrome-moly. Stainless steel resists heat erosion better. Also we can get a slightly better internal finish when lapping with stainless steel.

    Approximately 90% of the barrels we manufacture are made from stainless steel. In our experience, most of the chrome-moly barrels we make go on high-grade custom hunting rifles that are going to have a nice custom made wood stock. And some shooters insist on having a blued barrel.

    An exception to the above is the large number of 50BMG barrels we make from chrome-moly. Our recommendation for steel choice with 50BMG barrels depends on the bullet type the shooter intends to use. If you are going to use conventional jacked bullets, such as the Hornady or ball ammunition, then the stainless steel barrels will probably last longer and foul less. But if your choice is one of the custom made lathe-turned bullets made from brass, bronze, copper, or even steel, then the chrome-moly barrels will probably last longer and give better accuracy. Please see our comments on moly coating and these types of bullets. If you plan to shoot both types of bullets then the chrome-moly barrels are a better choice."

    My perspective (by no means am I trying to place this on the same level as the above mentioned experts):


    Stainless is better for the vast majority of applications. There are only two reasons I can think of to go chrome-moly.

    1) If you are going to have the chrome-moly barrel nitrided properly (don't just let anybody do it...the bore can come out rough or the barrel extension / barrel interface can be compromised), you can get around the corrosion and earlier wear problem.

    2) If you are going to primarily be shooting in EXTREME cold...like -50 F cold. There's a lot of conflicting information out there on this. So I don't want to start a whole "thing" over this. People get riled up really easy on this topic. My personal opinion after research is that 416R loses a bit of fatigue resistance at subzero temperatures. With a heavy contour barrel I don't think it's significant but a lightweight stainless IMO will be prone to problems in extreme cold. Chrome-moly does not suffer at all in cold weather. I'm not saying not to shoot a stainless barrel in the winter...I do it all the time. I'm talking about an extreme environment.

    So, again, Stainless makes more sense for most people.
    Great post but for practical (AR specific) purposes aren’t we comparing chrome-lined CrMo barrels and stainless?

    I’d like to know more about the specs on the Noveske stainless barrels. They have some sort of hybrid 556 match chamber? From what I’ve read when you start to try to shrink groups to less than ½ MOA the chamber dimension vs you ammo starts to get very important.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •